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Old 07-07-2016, 11:12 AM
 
206 posts, read 182,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Joel 3

Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! 10Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man."

Isaiah says just the opposite, '' And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.''

Which is it?.....
These quotes are a great contradiction. God did not command men to prepare wars or go to war, or kill people.

What God had commanded really it is what Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel, because Jesus is God who became man and taught us the commandments that were really given by God. And the commandments that Jesus taught us say: "Thou shalt not kill".
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,818 posts, read 4,970,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porque77 View Post
These quotes are a great contradiction. God did not command men to prepare wars or go to war, or kill people.

What God had commanded really it is what Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel, because Jesus is God who became man and taught us the commandments that were really given by God. And the commandments that Jesus taught us say: "Thou shalt not kill".


Romans 13
…3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience.…
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:29 AM
 
206 posts, read 182,562 times
Reputation: 19
Default The law that Jesus CAME NOT TO ABOLISH is the GOSPEL'S LAW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porque77
These quotes are a great contradiction. God did not command men to prepare wars or go to war, or kill people.

What God had commanded really it is what Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel, because Jesus is God who became man and taught us the commandments that were really given by God. And the commandments that Jesus taught us say: "Thou shalt not kill".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Romans 13
…3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience.…
The letters attributed to Paul command:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. ........... for he beareth not the sword in vain........ Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also" (Romans 13: 1-6)

But Jesus says some thing different:

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many".

Jesus Christ did not command us to preach letters attributed to Paul. Jesus Christ commanded to preach the Gospel.

Paul's letters were long time in the hands of the scribes of the Roman Empire.
And also the letters had been twisted by the unlearned since the first century.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,273 posts, read 7,657,119 times
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You seem to be conflating how we live as a community of followers of Christ with how we live as members of a social order.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,818 posts, read 4,970,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porque77 View Post
The letters attributed to Paul command:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. ........... for he beareth not the sword in vain........ Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also" (Romans 13: 1-6)

But Jesus says some thing different:

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many".

Jesus Christ did not command us to preach letters attributed to Paul. Jesus Christ commanded to preach the Gospel.

Paul's letters were long time in the hands of the scribes of the Roman Empire. And also the letters had been twisted by the unlearned since the first century.
You really think men should not be put to death for transgressions?


Thou shalt not kill never meant that you didn't take time to put bad men in the dirt for their transgressions.


I come up on a man molesting a child, no way he lives and I wouldn't feel the slightest guilt. Back in the early days of this country, they put bad men in the ground where they found them.


We are here to speak for those without a voice, to stand against Tyranny, to protect the weak and to stand against evil. If we let evil men go and they go and molest and kill, the guilt should fall on our own heads. They put these child molesters in prison for 5 years like a slap on the wrist when we should be killing every single one of them because people like that do not change. WOE to the judge who does not stand up for the lives of children, if a judge let's one go then that judge is guilty of every offense against every child that molester would touch, and this doesn't stop. You ruin a child's life and it could go either way, you might make another molester or just completely ruin a child. That child will hate and loathe himself for the rest of his life.


Common sense dictates this to me, there are just men out there that need to be put in the ground.


What sort of leaders will not protect their people?
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 228,369 times
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Turning the gospel into a law means changing Christianity into a legalistic religion like that of the Pharisees only worse. The religion of the Pharisees was created by God, but the legalistic religions of men are more twisted and destructive.
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Mitch, Do you think evil men should be killed?
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,495,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porque77 View Post
The Ten Commandments of the Old Testament are not equal to the commandments that teach us the gospel, there are big differences. I'll give an example: The Old Testament tells us:

"Keep the Sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labor, and shalt do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt not do any work therein, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maid, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, neither any of thy cattle, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maid may rest as well as thou". (Deut. 5: 12-15).

On the contrary, the Gospel tells us:

"Jesus said unto him, Rise: take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and the same day was the Sabbath. The Jews therefore said to him that was made whole, It is the Sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. He answered them, He that made me whole he said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk" (John 5: 8-11)

"And therefore the Jews did persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him: not only because he had broken the Sabbath: but said also that God was his Father, and made himself equal with God"(John 5: 16-18)


Jesus did not respected and not fulfilled those laws about the Sabbath written in the Ten Commandments the Old Testament, and it is because Jesus Christ was God and those Old Testament laws were not God's law.

COMMANDED GOD THAT MEN WERE SLAVES OF OTHER MEN?

Commanded God that men were slaves of other men?

The 10 Commandments of the Old Testament's laws, about slaves, also say:

"Thou shalt not desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field or his manslave or his maidslave, his ox or his ass or any thing that is thy neighbour's" (Deutoro. 5: 21).

This commandment is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel. Jesus Christ said to a man who had great wealth:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell that thou hast, and give it to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, and follow me" (Matthew 19: 16-22)

According to the Old Testament commandment, I should not desire anything from my neighbor although I do not have anything, and my neighbor can wish all things what have their neighbors, and even their lives, taking them as slaves ... This commandment is a contradiction in itself and completely contradicts what Jesus says in the Gospel: "You will love your neighbor as yourself".


Is not equal say to those living in poverty they not should desire anything from those with great wealth than tell those who have great wealth sell all what they have and give all what they have to the poor. And this is the great difference between the commandments of the Old Testament and the commandments of the Gospel.

If I should not desire anything that belongs to my neighbor (as says the tenth commandment of Jewish law), then my neighbor should not wish to have his neighbor as slave, BECAUSE HE WANT TO REMOVE THE FREEDOM TO HIM... And freedom is a treasure that belongs to every man, then we remove a great treasure that belongs to him (freedom).
There are many contradictions in the OT for sure, but it was intended to be contrary.

Look at the wisdom literature some of which was probably copied from existing ancient Eastern wisdom literature of other religions. And what is in biblical wisdom literature sometimes conflict. Consider thes two verses in Ecclessiastes compared to one in Proverbs:

For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. (1:18)
Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise—why destroy yourself? (7:16)
The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. (Prov. 4:7)

Ecclesiastes warns about wisdom while Proverbs urges it. People think both points cannot be true but they are. The Bible is diverse and each of these statements were inspired by God for whatever situation we might find ourselves in.

The writer of Ecclessiastes has not always seen wisdom work for good. Wisdom does not guarantee a payoff, and this frustrates Qoheleth, the writer. He has seen the just suffer and the unjust get rewarded.

So what we have to do is bring wisdom TO Scripture before we can receive wisdom from Scripture. This is one of the great problems fundamentalism has. It is constantly trying to make different Scriptures "fit" when, because there are so many diverse views, God is telling us that the "great tenents" of Scripture are absolutely situational. Yes, the Bible is full of situational ethics and it takes great study of the context in which it was written to gain the wisdom needed to interpret it properly.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 228,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Mitch, Do you think evil men should be killed?
Who gets to draw the line in the sand between those who are evil and those who are not?


But are there some extreme case who should be killed? I think so, the sooner better. But it is not so much that they are evil as the fact that they are a public menace.
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Old 07-30-2016, 08:27 AM
 
1,867 posts, read 1,212,206 times
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Default New vs. Old & What The Gospel Is ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porque77 View Post
WHICH IS THE LAW OF GOD?

The Old Testament? The New Testament? Or the Gospel?...

The commandments of the Gospel, are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.

The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7:12)

What God wants is the mercy

"If you had known what this means, I want mercy and not sacrifice, you wouldn’t have condemned the innocent" (Matthew 12:7)

Jesus commanded to forgive seventy times seven:

"Then Peter came and said: Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Till seven? Jesus said: I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven." (Matthew 18 :21-22)

Jesus speaks to the pharisees about the Law

When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had left the Sadducees speechless, they met together. One of them, a legal expert, tested him. Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? He replied, “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your being, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You must love your neighbor as you love yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands” (Matthew 22:34-40)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19:16-22)

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.

So which is the law that the Christians must follow?

The law that Jesus CAME NOT TO ABOLISH is the GOSPEL'S LAW

Old have to do with law in the first 5 books of the bible completely until John 1:17 broke this up.
New have to with anything in the old and new testaments outside of the teachings in the first 5 books that's not continued law today.
Gospel simply the advertising of Jesus for sin atonement of man through the cross.


New don't mean take away law just take away expired laws in the first 5 books of the bible.
Gospel don't mean take away law just advertise sin atonement for man through the cross of Jesus only.
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