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Old 09-06-2017, 07:10 PM
 
Location: New England
32,225 posts, read 21,104,768 times
Reputation: 2274

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I don't think so. The OT is full of alternative interpretations. And Jesus was all about choosing the right ones.
The following long excerpt is from Derek Flood's book, "Disarming Scripture: Cherry-Picking Liberals, Violence-Loving Conservatives, and Why We All Need to Learn to Read the Bible Like Jesus Did"

all emphasis mine

This book sounds like a great read and should be read by all fundamentalists.
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Old 09-18-2017, 01:15 PM
 
206 posts, read 182,525 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
It is seriously hard to understand what you are trying to say, you say something and then contradict it, Jesus was speaking of the literal laws of Moses when he spoke of the jots and tittles...............
For Christians who are biased against the laws of Moses, THERE IS NO LAW OF JESUS.
I see you do not understand what I am saying.

You must understand that the Law that God really gave Moses are the commandments that Jesus Christ taught us in the Gospel, not all the commandments that are written in the Old Testament, because in the Old Testament there are written many commandments that are only precepts of men, because the Law of God was changed by the scribes, as the prophets tell us:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws,
changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

Jesus teaches that the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth should not be applied in any way, because He says that to anyone who strikes you on one cheek, you must also turn the othe cheek.
Then Jesus abolished the commandment that commanded men to apply an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, because Jesus said "whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also," then no man should injure or kill other men. Therefore, the "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was annulled by Jesus:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:...)

The Law that God really gave to Moses are the commandments that Jesus Christ taught us in the Gospel, not the commandments that are written in the Old Testament that were annuled by Jesus. And the commandments that Jesus taught in the Gospel are the commandments that Jesus fulfilled and obeyed, for Jesus did not obey the Old Testament commandments that commanded men to do harm and kill people. For example, Jesus did not obey the law that he commanded to kill to stones the woman that the Jews brought before Jesus. Jesus said:

"But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst". (Juan 8:3-12)

As you see, Jesus said: " He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her". So no man should kill other men, and nor no man should have killed other men in any age, for all men are sinners.

And Jesus, who is the only one free from sin, did not condemn the woman either:

"And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more". (Juan 8:3-12)

You must understand that Jesus, with his teachings and his own example, annulled the Old Testament laws that commanded men to kill people, since Jesus abolished from the old testament all the commandments that were not true Law of God, but precepts of men, because Jesus did not come to abolish the true Law of God.

The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:31-48, Matthew 12:1-8, John 5:8-11, John 5:16-18, John 8:3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel). And He abolished them because weren't God's commandments, but precepts of men.

The Gospel says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" (Matthew 5:17-20) .

In these words are based many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5: 21-48 and other parts of the Gospel.

The words of Jesus Christ in this famous verse (Matthew 5: 17), which tells us that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, refers to the true Law of God, which is the Law that Jesus Christ himself taught us in the Gospel. Jesus Christ teaches that the law and the prophets that He did not come to abolish is the following:

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12) .

Therefore, this is the law that God gave to Israel because Jesus Christ himself says that "this is the law and the prophets". This is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ("Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets"). And of this law did pass "not one jot not one tittle", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel and that is the true Law that God gave to Moses.


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Old 09-18-2017, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,805 posts, read 4,968,434 times
Reputation: 1502
LOL.


So you take what Jesus said and write a big post how Jesus wasn't speaking of the laws of Moses?


He SPECIFICALLY spoke of the laws of Moses when he didn't come to abolish them, he SPECIFICALLY said that the laws of Moses would not end. He SPECIFICALLY said that we had better follow the laws better than the Pharisees.


Jesus SPECIFICALLY goes out of his way to explain lawless people when he shows them that they do not know him, and COULD NOT KNOW HIM because they disrespect the laws of Moses, he tells the law breakers to depart from him because HE IS THE LAW.


Nobody will know Jesus unless they know the laws, the Sabbaths, the feasts.


You start explaining to a non believer how Jesus was a Passover lamb under the law and why a loser should accept Jesus as his Passover, as his ram, as his red heifer, as his goat, as his Sukkot Bull and you explain the feasts and how they teach you of Jesus in a personal way, and if you can't teach Jesus in all the sacrifices and all the law, you simply don't know Jesus.


The laws of Moses TEACH of Jesus, the feasts TEACH of Jesus and who we are to Jesus.




You start teaching another Jesus, another truth, and you are just making things up.


You aren't going to change the facts of what Jesus said about the laws of Moses, whoever keeps them and teaches others to keep them are teaching WHO JESUS IS.


Gentiles and lawbreakers are sent to the outer court JUST AS JESUS SAYS, you can disrespect the laws of Moses and not keep any of them and you can even teach others not to keep them BUT YOU WILL BE CALLED THE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND PEOPLE WILL POINT AT YOU SAYING,'' THIS IS THE MAN WHO DESPISED THE LAWS OF MOSES AND TAUGHT EVERYONE NOT TO KEEP THE LAWS OF MOSES.''
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:42 AM
 
Location: US
27,963 posts, read 15,050,737 times
Reputation: 1741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porque77 View Post
I see you do not understand what I am saying.

You must understand that the Law that God really gave Moses are the commandments that Jesus Christ taught us in the Gospel, not all the commandments that are written in the Old Testament, because in the Old Testament there are written many commandments that are only precepts of men, because the Law of God was changed by the scribes, as the prophets tell us:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws,
changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

Jesus teaches that the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth should not be applied in any way, because He says that to anyone who strikes you on one cheek, you must also turn the othe cheek.
Then Jesus abolished the commandment that commanded men to apply an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, because Jesus said "whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also," then no man should injure or kill other men. Therefore, the "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was annulled by Jesus:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:...)

The Law that God really gave to Moses are the commandments that Jesus Christ taught us in the Gospel, not the commandments that are written in the Old Testament that were annuled by Jesus. And the commandments that Jesus taught in the Gospel are the commandments that Jesus fulfilled and obeyed, for Jesus did not obey the Old Testament commandments that commanded men to do harm and kill people. For example, Jesus did not obey the law that he commanded to kill to stones the woman that the Jews brought before Jesus. Jesus said:

"But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst". (Juan 8:3-12)

As you see, Jesus said: " He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her". So no man should kill other men, and nor no man should have killed other men in any age, for all men are sinners.

And Jesus, who is the only one free from sin, did not condemn the woman either:

"And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more". (Juan 8:3-12)

You must understand that Jesus, with his teachings and his own example, annulled the Old Testament laws that commanded men to kill people, since Jesus abolished from the old testament all the commandments that were not true Law of God, but precepts of men, because Jesus did not come to abolish the true Law of God.

The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:31-48, Matthew 12:1-8, John 5:8-11, John 5:16-18, John 8:3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel). And He abolished them because weren't God's commandments, but precepts of men.

The Gospel says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" (Matthew 5:17-20) .

In these words are based many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5: 21-48 and other parts of the Gospel.

The words of Jesus Christ in this famous verse (Matthew 5: 17), which tells us that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, refers to the true Law of God, which is the Law that Jesus Christ himself taught us in the Gospel. Jesus Christ teaches that the law and the prophets that He did not come to abolish is the following:

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12) .

Therefore, this is the law that God gave to Israel because Jesus Christ himself says that "this is the law and the prophets". This is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ("Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets"). And of this law did pass "not one jot not one tittle", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel and that is the true Law that God gave to Moses.


No...
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:48 AM
 
9,280 posts, read 3,150,127 times
Reputation: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
LOL.


So you take what Jesus said and write a big post how Jesus wasn't speaking of the laws of Moses?


He SPECIFICALLY spoke of the laws of Moses when he didn't come to abolish them, he SPECIFICALLY said that the laws of Moses would not end. He SPECIFICALLY said that we had better follow the laws better than the Pharisees.


Jesus SPECIFICALLY goes out of his way to explain lawless people when he shows them that they do not know him, and COULD NOT KNOW HIM because they disrespect the laws of Moses, he tells the law breakers to depart from him because HE IS THE LAW.


Nobody will know Jesus unless they know the laws, the Sabbaths, the feasts.


You start explaining to a non believer how Jesus was a Passover lamb under the law and why a loser should accept Jesus as his Passover, as his ram, as his red heifer, as his goat, as his Sukkot Bull and you explain the feasts and how they teach you of Jesus in a personal way, and if you can't teach Jesus in all the sacrifices and all the law, you simply don't know Jesus.


The laws of Moses TEACH of Jesus, the feasts TEACH of Jesus and who we are to Jesus.




You start teaching another Jesus, another truth, and you are just making things up.


You aren't going to change the facts of what Jesus said about the laws of Moses, whoever keeps them and teaches others to keep them are teaching WHO JESUS IS.


Gentiles and lawbreakers are sent to the outer court JUST AS JESUS SAYS, you can disrespect the laws of Moses and not keep any of them and you can even teach others not to keep them BUT YOU WILL BE CALLED THE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND PEOPLE WILL POINT AT YOU SAYING,'' THIS IS THE MAN WHO DESPISED THE LAWS OF MOSES AND TAUGHT EVERYONE NOT TO KEEP THE LAWS OF MOSES.''

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Old 10-09-2017, 05:01 PM
 
206 posts, read 182,525 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
He SPECIFICALLY spoke of the laws of Moses when he didn't come to abolish them.............
The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:31-48, Matthew 12:1-8, John 5:8-11, John 5:16-18, John 8:3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel). And He abolished them because weren't God's commandments, but precepts of men.

The Gospel says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" (Matthew 5:17-20) .

In these words are based many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5: 21-48 and other parts of the Gospel.

The words of Jesus Christ in this famous verse (Matthew 5: 17), which tells us that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, refers to the true Law of God, which is the Law that Jesus Christ himself taught us in the Gospel. Jesus Christ teaches that the law and the prophets that He did not come to abolish is the following:

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12) .

Therefore, this is the law that God gave to Israel because Jesus Christ himself says that "this is the law and the prophets". This is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ("Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets"). And of this law did pass "not one jot not one tittle", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel and that is the true Law that God gave to Moses.

Now I also remember the Law of Jesus Christ expressed in commandments, as the Gospel teaches:

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

And this law and these commandments are in effect for all peoples.

However, no one is under the laws of the Old Testament that were abolished by Jesus Christ, because those laws were not true Law of God, but precepts of men. We are all under the Law and the commandments of Christ, which are the only true Law of God.
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,805 posts, read 4,968,434 times
Reputation: 1502
I stopped reading after a couple sentences because how do you go from there?


Jesus SPECIFICALLY SPOKE OF THE LAWS OF MOSES.




Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.


Specifically telling you,'' THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS,'' you can't rationalize any other law into this save the laws of Moses.


They said the same of Stephen and killed him because liars were paid to tell the same things, AGAIN, Paul was brought under the witness of thousands of Jewish believers and handed into the hands of the priests of Judaism to see if the lies were true when people were lying and telling rumors that Paul was teaching Jews not to keep the laws of Moses. Paul had to sacrifice and get help JUST TO PROVE he never left Judaism, TO PROVE that he wasn't teaching Jews not to abandon the customs of Moses.


You are trying to convict Jesus and all the disciples of being false prophets deserving of death.


You are saying the same things that killed Stephen, that tried to kill Paul over and over because of people telling lies and rumors that Paul was teaching Jews not to keep the laws of Moses.


You want to take modern Christianity and force it into a place it didn't even exist. Christianity did not abandon the ways of God for 100 years after Jesus died, Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism, when will you ever admit this fact?


Jesus came teaching secrets of Torah adding gentiles TO JEWS, he didn't come to make Gentiles killers of Jews, he came adding gentiles to the Jewish nation where Gentiles and Jews became one.


YOU are teaching separation.


The Jew could not possibly join you, you have to come to God and join him.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,142,356 times
Reputation: 7505
Since this thread has so much boldfacing, it's time for me to test it out. TYPE LOUD AND BOLDLY. LOL

I see underlining too. Use type and font gimmicks to get attention and try to make your point stand out.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,805 posts, read 4,968,434 times
Reputation: 1502
Way too loud dude, calm down, step away from the bullhorn geeze!
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,142,356 times
Reputation: 7505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Way too loud dude, calm down, step away from the bullhorn geeze!
Hey man, I didn't start it. The other folks did. I do enjoy the bullhorn though
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