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You know, Cool, it always amazes me how people forget the lessons of the Bible and are so quick to point the finger at LDS Prophets. Let’s start with Jonah. Here we have a Prophet, who had so little faith in God, he ran away. God finally had to arrange for Jonah to be swallowed by a whale before he got the message and obeyed, and even after he did, Jonah threw a temper tantrum when God did not destroy the Ninevites. Next, let’s talk about King Saul. Here is a man who conversed with God, but was not obedient and would end up attempting to kill David. Oh, and how about David. He had regular conversations with God, yet he committed adultery and murder. Finally, let us talk about two of Christ’s Apostles, Peter and Judas. Judas betrayed Jesus and Peter denied Jesus three times, yet people revere Peter to this day, not that he doesn’t deserve respect for his post crucifixion behavior. Yep, men of God are perfect, know everything, and are in unceasing communication with God every second.
The difference here is how certain words are taken that the prophets speak.
I remember way back in that 'Ask an LDS' thread, that I asked if the words that prophets speak were basically considered scripture after they spoke them and someone there (I thought it was you Sarge, but I haven't gone back and dug it out) said 'Yes'.
If that's true, and in fact these men are supposed to be mouthpieces for God in the same way OT prophets were, then I have to disagree with you and say that there is no room for mistakes when you're under the banner of 'Spokesperson for God'.
As my post #50 states different articles from various sources here is one defining the Juvenile Instructor:
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in 1864, when Elder George Q. Cannon returned from serving in the presidency of the European Mission, he saw the need for teaching the gospel in Zion.
He later said, “When I reflected upon the numbers of our children at home, I felt a burning desire to spend all the time I could in trying to teach them the principles of the Gospel. ”5 He reorganized a Sunday School program in the Fourteenth Ward, and soon his example was followed in other Salt Lake City wards.
the Juvenile Instructor magazine:
As the Church and its auxiliary organization grew, so did the need for communication.
In 1866 the Juvenile Instructor was edited and published privately by George Q. Cannon for the Sunday School.
Later the magazine was published by the Deseret Sunday School Union.
The magazine was called the Juvenile Instructor from 1866 to 1929 and the Instructor from 1930 to 1970.
In early 1866 Elder Cannon launched the Juvenile Instructor as a personal project.
On its pages, children’s conferences, weekly Sunday meetings, scriptural reading, and religious instructions were highlighted.
Elder Cannon realized that a journal devoted to the needs of the Sunday Schools would be of great value, particularly since there was so little curriculum available.
The Juvenile Instructor “was a means of strengthening the hands of those who had the Sunday School cause at heart.
”6 This biweekly periodical, though dedicated entirely to the Sunday School cause, remained under the private direction of Elder Cannon until 1900, when it came under direct auspices of the Church.
In November 1867 steps were taken toward establishing a permanent Sunday School organization.
President Brigham Young spoke to numerous local leaders concerning his desires for the education of the youth of Zion. Elder George Q. Cannon was selected as president of the fledgling general organization to unite the already existing local Sunday Schools and to promote the establishment of new ones throughout the Church.
In 1872, the name Deseret Sunday School Union was formally adopted and “union meetings” of Sunday School workers were held the first Monday in each month.
Year by year the union increased in numbers of youthful students. (There were no adult courses at that time.)
Uniformity was reached in the methods of teaching and the mode of conducting the schools.
Punctuality, memorization of gospel facts, and robust singing of hymns were highly prized in these early years of the Sunday School in the Church. Church History ch 31-35
There is proof of racism in the mormon church, listen to this. Mormons believe that Elohim is their heavenly father and that he lives with many of his wives on a planet near a mysterious star called Kolob. Here the god of Mormonism and his wives, through endless sex, produced billions of spirit children. To decide their destiny, the head of the Mormon gods called a great heavenly council meeting. Both of Elohim eldest children were there Jesus and Lucifer. A plan was created to build planet earth, where the spirit children would be sent to earth to get mortal bodies, in which they would learn good from evil. Lucifer(or the devil, satan) made his bid of becoming the savior of the new world. Wanting all the glory for himself, he planned to force everyone to become gods.
Opposing the idea according to Mormons was the Mormon Jesus suggested giving man his freedom of choice, as on other planets. The council voted and took the Mormon Jesus side, he would become the savior of the new planet earth.
Very upset Lucifer took 1/3 of the spirits destined to earth to fight with him and rebel. Thus Lucifer became the devil, and his followers became demons. Sent to the world in spirit form denied a fleshly body. Those who remained neutral in this battle were cursed to be born with black skin. This is how the Mormon explain the black race. The spirits that fought the most against Lucifer and his demons would be born with light skin. This is the white race, or "white and delightsome," as the book of Mormon describes them. This is why the Mormon religion has always been known as a racist one.
There is proof of racism in the mormon church, listen to this. Mormons believe that Elohim is their heavenly father and that he lives with many of his wives on a planet near a mysterious star called Kolob. Here the god of Mormonism and his wives, through endless sex, produced billions of spirit children. To decide their destiny, the head of the Mormon gods called a great heavenly council meeting. Both of Elohim eldest children were there Jesus and Lucifer. A plan was created to build planet earth, where the spirit children would be sent to earth to get mortal bodies, in which they would learn good from evil. Lucifer(or the devil, satan) made his bid of becoming the savior of the new world. Wanting all the glory for himself, he planned to force everyone to become gods.
Opposing the idea according to Mormons was the Mormon Jesus suggested giving man his freedom of choice, as on other planets. The council voted and took the Mormon Jesus side, he would become the savior of the new planet earth.
Very upset Lucifer took 1/3 of the spirits destined to earth to fight with him and rebel. Thus Lucifer became the devil, and his followers became demons. Sent to the world in spirit form denied a fleshly body. Those who remained neutral in this battle were cursed to be born with black skin. This is how the Mormon explain the black race. The spirits that fought the most against Lucifer and his demons would be born with light skin. This is the white race, or "white and delightsome," as the book of Mormon describes them. This is why the Mormon religion has always been known as a racist one.
ministers ... the first part of your first paragraph is an outright lie, whether you know it or not.
As for your third paragraph about those being neutral being born with black skin ... I assume that is some sort of spin -off of the claim earlier in this thread. It is patently false -- never been part of Mormon doctrine. You anti-Mormons need to decide on a story and stick to it -- Either the "demons" version or the "descendents of Cain" version.
I can't tell if you are spouting these untruths and half-truths out of ignorance or willfully. I guess if I had to choose, I hope its the former, but neither gives me much reassurance.
There is proof of racism in the mormon church, listen to this. Mormons believe that Elohim is their heavenly father and that he lives with many of his wives on a planet near a mysterious star called Kolob. Here the god of Mormonism and his wives, through endless sex, produced billions of spirit children. To decide their destiny, the head of the Mormon gods called a great heavenly council meeting. Both of Elohim eldest children were there Jesus and Lucifer. A plan was created to build planet earth, where the spirit children would be sent to earth to get mortal bodies, in which they would learn good from evil. Lucifer(or the devil, satan) made his bid of becoming the savior of the new world. Wanting all the glory for himself, he planned to force everyone to become gods.
Opposing the idea according to Mormons was the Mormon Jesus suggested giving man his freedom of choice, as on other planets. The council voted and took the Mormon Jesus side, he would become the savior of the new planet earth.
Very upset Lucifer took 1/3 of the spirits destined to earth to fight with him and rebel. Thus Lucifer became the devil, and his followers became demons. Sent to the world in spirit form denied a fleshly body. Those who remained neutral in this battle were cursed to be born with black skin. This is how the Mormon explain the black race. The spirits that fought the most against Lucifer and his demons would be born with light skin. This is the white race, or "white and delightsome," as the book of Mormon describes them. This is why the Mormon religion has always been known as a racist one.
I hope you have good reliable sources for these things you are saying I am not morman, but I can't believe the things you are saying..Are you Mormon..In another forum you said you were a prophet..Would you care to share what religion you are..Which denomination or non denomination of the christian faith are you? Maybe someone here would like to give their opinion..On the second thought, I don't know anyone here who would say such things about someones faith without absolute proof
I hope you have good reliable sources for these things you are saying I am not morman, but I can't believe the things you are saying..Are you Mormon..In another forum you said you were a prophet..Would you care to share what religion you are..Which denomination or non denomination of the christian faith are you? Maybe someone here would like to give their opinion..On the second thought, I don't know anyone here who would say such things about someones faith without absolute proof
I could go on and on about the Mormon religion. I think I will start a new thread, check it out.
Old 11-25-2007, 07:47 PM
dreameyes
Celestial Wannabe Quote:
Originally Posted by Miborn
Church leader Bruce R. McConkie, on the denial of equality for Africans:
“NEGROES IN THIS LIFE ARE DENIED THE PRIESTHOOD; under NO circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM... “NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES WHERE THE RECEIPT OF CERTAIN SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE CONCERNED...” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477)
Future President of the Mormon church, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
“Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness HE BECAME THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE.”
(The Way to Perfection, page 101)
More from Smith:
“There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.”
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 61)
The Mark of Cain
The Mormon prophet Brigham Young on the appearance of Africans:
“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)
From a Mormon Publication:
“Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, THEIR INTELLIGENCE STUNTED, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.” The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157)
Dreameyes wrote: The Mormon God and Skin Color
Quoted by SergeantL
This is all well and good, Sean, but none of it is Church Canon. I am also suspicious of the quote from the alleged First Presidency Letter. It is not clear who is being quoted; the alleged author of the letter or the authors of the article in reference to their observations of Church practices.
Next, Mormon Doctrine was written by Bruce McConkie, who was a member of the Church, but was not writing for the Church and his book contains much of his own speculation. His works are full of holes and not supported by Church doctrine. I have found at least ten subjects in his work that are clearly contradicted by Church Canon.
Finally, the Journal of Discourses is not Church Canon. The Journal of Discourses is a collection of Church events recorded by various members, but it is not the basis or authority for Church beliefs or practices.
I repeat; and expand somewhat. Unless something is contained in Church Canon, it is not a religious belief. LDS Canon consists of the KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses, and the Doctrine and Covenants."
Nough Said!!!!!
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I find this interesting because I found another post by dreameyes that says the following:
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:24 PM
dreameyes
Celestial Wannabe
Well you know what I believe Sarge.
I just don't understand why some believe that canon is "closed" and that God would not want to lead His children today.
Ok you say well it is always possible to have personal revelation from God.
Most definately.
In this world today though there is so much confusion and disorder wouldn't you think that there should be an organization that could provide order and direction (from God) on how to live?
Like someone said in another thread the Prophets of the Bible pointed to Jesus. True. So why would there not be Prophets today pointing to him also?
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So I guess I am confused in one post you address church canon:
as being: unless something is contained in Church Canon, it is not a religious belief. LDS Canon consists of the KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses, and the Doctrine and Covenants."
Then you said:
That you believe in prophets of today, well prophets in the mormon church speak in the journal of discourses which you denounced as not being church canon.
So again as I said I am very confused...........
No, it was meant as sarcasm related to the common belief that prophets are perfect and have an unending stream of revelation from God. Prophets are men and subject to the same weaknesses, failures, and testing as the rest of us.
No, I understand what you meant. I guess I just worded it a little differently and it lost some of its punch. We are all imperfect beings in an imperfect world and we're bound to screw up at some time or another. The question is: what do we do when that happens; lie there and complain or get up, brush ourselves off and move forward again?
The difference here is how certain words are taken that the prophets speak.
I remember way back in that 'Ask an LDS' thread, that I asked if the words that prophets speak were basically considered scripture after they spoke them and someone there (I thought it was you Sarge, but I haven't gone back and dug it out) said 'Yes'.
If that's true, and in fact these men are supposed to be mouthpieces for God in the same way OT prophets were, then I have to disagree with you and say that there is no room for mistakes when you're under the banner of 'Spokesperson for God'.
I can't specifically recall the thread you mention, but I "think" you may have misunderstood what I meant within the context of the discussion.
If an LDS Prophet establishes a Church practice, then that's it, and by this I mean it’s what faithful members will do. Now, unless this practice ends up in our standard works, it is not scripture and is subject to change at a latter date. I do not want to minimize what I have just written, so let me make it clear; while this Prophet is in office and unless he or a subsequent Prophet changes the practice, his word has the power of scripture, but it is not scripture. I know to an outsider it seems there is no distinction, but there is.
Pronouncements from the pulpit by Church leadership on any topic regarding how the Church will operate are—seldom—pronouncements from God in the form of “so saith the Lord God of Israel.” We in the Church understand the Prophet has three distinct roles. He pronounces God’s will, but only when commanded by God, and I assure you, such pronouncements end up in Canon. As an example, Official Declaration 1 in regards to Plural Marriage and Official Declaration 2 regarding African males and the Priesthood. He is the President of the Church, which is a purely administrative position and is no different than a CEO of any business. Finally, he is an ordinary man with a family and shortcomings.
Brigham Young and other early leaders of the Church made what—I—consider to be grossly stupid statements regarding the status of Africans. My mastery of the scriptures is no were near that of Church leaders, but even I could find information in the Book of Mormon that contradicted Brother Young’s declaration that Africans would never hold the Priesthood. Cool has already pointed out one of those scriptures and there are others.
Now, with all this said, I go back to my original point. Prophets and even Apostles of God are not perfect men. They are subject to the foibles of humanity, but unless God replaces them through premature death, it seems their actions are not of such a nature that they disrupt God’s purposes.
...his word has the power of scripture, but it is not scripture. I know to an outsider it seems there is no distinction, but there is.....
You could have probably guessed that I take great issue with this. Nothing my pastor or any other spiritual leader says even remotely approaches scripture.
That's tough for me to get passed, but thank you for clarifying.
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I am not morman, but I can't believe the things you are saying..Are you Mormon..In another forum you said you were a prophet
..Would you care to share what religion you are..Which denomination or non denomination of the christian faith are you? Maybe someone here would like to give their opinion..On the second thought, I don't know anyone here who would say such things about someones faith without absolute proof
