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Old 11-20-2007, 09:23 AM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,233,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
Now.. the original poster asked the question if there is racism in the mormon church.. so what is the stance of the church concerning Indians (Native Americans)?
There have been at least two posts on this topic. If you review them, you will have your answer.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,698,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Lamanites were an ancient people of the Americas, who are documented in the Book of Mormon.

Please don't use the word 'documented' when referring to the content of the Book of Mormon. That would be a mistake because the Book of Mormon presents no independently verifiable supporting information about the alleged existence of Lamanites.

From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (www.m-w.com): (broken link)

document - (v.) 1. to furnish documentary evidence of ... 3 a to provide with factual or substantial support for statements made or a hypothesis proposed; especially : to equip with exact references to authoritative supporting information
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:41 AM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,190,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Once again, I don't see how I can make this any clearer. I have said nothing about the practice "not being so bad." The Church is a body of people and not everyone thinks alike. The president of a corporation may believe manufacturing widgets is a good idea. He may use his authority to institute the process of manufacture, and the employees of the company may submit to his will and build the product; however, none of this means the employees believe building widgets is a good idea or actually support this belief.

When you say the Church believed Africans were cursed, you are saying I or any other member of the Church believed they were cursed. Since my Godparents were African American and I have been a member since well before 1978, I must assume you think I also believe my Godparents were cursed, and the fact is I did not nor do I. Brigham Young was a great man, but he was just that, a man, and subject to human fallibility.

The LDS Church has a line of authority and unlike some other churches of which I am aware, the members don’t take a vote and oust the Pastor or Minister or change the Canon or procedures of the Church just because we don’t agree with the direction of the Church. In our faith, one either obeys—and this does not mean one agrees—or one leaves the Church. There are no other options.

Here are two analogies. I served in Vietnam. I did not believe in the war, but I submitted to my government. Can you say just because Lyndon Johnson declared the war to be correct meant the United States believed it to be correct or justified? As we know, history proves the United States did not think the war was justified or correct. Does the United States believe the current action in Iraq to be correct? Regardless of the fact that men and women are submitting and supporting President Bush by fighting in Iraq, it is clear the United States as a whole does not support or believe in the actions in that country.

As you have written, we both have our views. Since I am a long standing member of the LDS faith, I have more experience and insight into the issue than you. I am immersed in the LDS community and beliefs everyday, and I know how the members feel and behave. There is no doubt some early members took Brigham at his word and believed in the curse, but history has proven the Church and its members did not.
1. Abiding by the laws of the government is a far cry from believing the "great men" like Mr. Young.

2. Alas I changed my quote (see my post above). I no longer believe "the church" believed African Americans were cursed.

However, this sentence makes zero sense to me:

"There is no doubt some early members took Brigham at his word and believed in the curse, but history has proven the Church and its members did not."

So some believed but history has shown none believed..

My uneducated mind leaves me at one word in rebuttal.. "whatever".

The public evidence is overwhelming.. but I'll set that aside and drop my claim based on your unbiased view (see my post above where I change my quote).
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:42 AM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,190,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
There have been at least two posts on this topic. If you review them, you will have your answer.
Can you point me in that direction of those links? I've looked but have yet to find the answer.
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:32 AM
 
3,698 posts, read 10,196,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
In my original post, I warned against using such pieces of information, because they are not included in Church Canon and if something is not in Church Canon, such as the Doctrine and Covenants, it's not a Church belief.
"From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel." (Letter from the First Presidency, quoted in Mormonism and the Negro, by John J. Stewart and William E. Berrett, pp.46-47)

Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them...
"Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned...
" (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, page 477)

"Cain slew his brother... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.. ..How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, pp. 290-291)

"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity... he is the last to share the joys of the kingdom of God." (Ibid., Vol. 2, page 143)

"'The church has no intention of changing its doctrine on the Negro,' N. Eldon Tanner, counselor to the First President told SEATTLE during his recent visit here. 'Throughout the history of the original Christian church, the Negro never held the priesthood. There's really nothing we can do to change this. It's a law of God.'" (Seattle Magazine, December 1967, p. 60)

"We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were cursed with what we call negroid racial characteristics." (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, page 554)

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot, This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, page 110)
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:57 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,233,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean98125 View Post
"From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel." (Letter from the First Presidency, quoted in Mormonism and the Negro, by John J. Stewart and William E. Berrett, pp.46-47)

Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them...
"Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned...
" (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, page 477)

"Cain slew his brother... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.. ..How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, pp. 290-291)

"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity... he is the last to share the joys of the kingdom of God." (Ibid., Vol. 2, page 143)

"'The church has no intention of changing its doctrine on the Negro,' N. Eldon Tanner, counselor to the First President told SEATTLE during his recent visit here. 'Throughout the history of the original Christian church, the Negro never held the priesthood. There's really nothing we can do to change this. It's a law of God.'" (Seattle Magazine, December 1967, p. 60)

"We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were cursed with what we call negroid racial characteristics." (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, page 554)

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot, This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, page 110)
This is all well and good, Sean, but none of it is Church Canon. I am also suspicious of the quote from the alleged First Presidency Letter. It is not clear who is being quoted; the alleged author of the letter or the authors of the article in reference to their observations of Church practices.

Next, Mormon Doctrine was written by Bruce McConkie, who was a member of the Church, but was not writing for the Church and his book contains much of his own speculation. His works are full of holes and not supported by Church doctrine. I have found at least ten subjects in his work that are clearly contradicted by Church Canon.

Finally, the Journal of Discourses is not Church Canon. The Journal of Discourses is a collection of Church events recorded by various members, but it is not the basis or authority for Church beliefs or practices.

I repeat; and expand somewhat. Unless something is contained in Church Canon, it is not a religious belief. LDS Canon consists of the KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses, and the Doctrine and Covenants.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:03 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,233,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post

"There is no doubt some early members took Brigham at his word and believed in the curse, but history has proven the Church and its members did not."

So some believed but history has shown none believed.
I sit corrected, in that I do not stand while typing on my keyboard. I should have written but history has proven the Church as an organization and the vast majority of its members did not.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:19 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,233,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
Please don't use the word 'documented' when referring to the content of the Book of Mormon. That would be a mistake because the Book of Mormon presents no independently verifiable supporting information about the alleged existence of Lamanites.

From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (www.m-w.com): (broken link)

document - (v.) 1. to furnish documentary evidence of ... 3 a to provide with factual or substantial support for statements made or a hypothesis proposed; especially : to equip with exact references to authoritative supporting information
"To document (verb) is to produce a document artifact by collecting and representing information." Before I retired, if I saw you run a stop sign, I would write you a ticket, which is how I would document your offense, even though I may not be able to provide any independently verifiable evidence substantiating your actions other than my own observations. I will, however, rephrase my statement to satisfy esteemed counsel’s objections.

The Book of Mormon contains information regarding the alleged existence of a people in the ancient Americas called the Lamanites, just as the Bible contains information regarding the alleged existence of God. I had to add the last part as a means of defending myself from the objections of the Atheists.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:36 PM
 
3 posts, read 7,225 times
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Default Stop this hate on the LDS at once....

I can point to the old fundamentalists that used to preach that slavery is part of the bible and that God approves of slavery. The Mormans never accepted slavery.

The LDS are the nicest group of Christians that I've ever had the pleasure of working with. They are believers in their doctines as resolute as some of you fundamentist bigots are in yours. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for casting doubt on the credibility of your brothers in Christ!

This whole thread is a total attack on a worthy religion.

and during Thankgiving season of all things.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:44 PM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,190,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
I sit corrected, in that I do not stand while typing on my keyboard. I should have written but history has proven the Church as an organization and the vast majority of its members did not.
not problem.. just didn't understand what you were saying...
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