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Old 10-20-2013, 04:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I may be wrong since I am going off of memory but the Targums were not written down until AFTER PAUL so how can Paul be quoting the Targums esp. that of Ps. 68 unless he was just quoting the oral tradition at the time. And if it was the oral tradition how does anyone know that what Paul was saying in regard to Eph. was accurately reflecting that tradition. Furthermore, as you pointed out what level of authority is a Rabbinic oral interpretation against what is considered God-inspired OT Scriptures - why should we even have to parse this mess of multiple interpretations that go beyond the OT esp. without ever showing it to be inspired in the first place. This just boggles my mind that this type of apologetic is necessary or helpful in one trying to put faith in the Scriptures themselves. I thought we were dealing with the Almighty!
Writing down the targum was prohibited; nevertheless, some targumatic writings appeared as early as the middle of the first century CE. [1

1.] ^ a b Schühlein, Franz (1912), Targum, New York: Robert Appleton Company

Targum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ephesians was written around 57-62 AD.

The reason why Paul quoted the Targum has already been explained.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,287 posts, read 5,497,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I may be wrong since I am going off of memory but the Targums were not written down until AFTER PAUL so how can Paul be quoting the Targums esp. that of Ps. 68 unless he was just quoting the oral tradition at the time. And if it was the oral tradition how does anyone know that what Paul was saying in regard to Eph. was accurately reflecting that tradition. Furthermore, as you pointed out what level of authority is a Rabbinic oral interpretation against what is considered God-inspired OT Scriptures - why should we even have to parse this mess of multiple interpretations that go beyond the OT esp. without ever showing it to be inspired in the first place. This just boggles my mind that this type of apologetic is necessary or helpful in one trying to put faith in the Scriptures themselves. I thought we were dealing with the Almighty!
Use of the Targums date back to the Second Temple, but the Jews were very careful to make sure that they were NEVER considered scripture as Mike has blessed them because Paul included them in his letter.
Quote:
The reader was forbidden to prompt the translator, lest any one should say that the Targum was included in the text of the Bible (Ulla in Meg. 32a). With regard to the translation of Biblical passages, Judah ben Ilai, the pupil of Akiba, declared that whosoever rendered a verse of the Bible in its original form was a liar, while he who made additions was a blasphemer (Tosef., Meg., end; Ḳid. 49a; comp. the geonic responsum in Harkavy, "Responsen der Geonim," pp. 124 et seq., and the quotation from Midr. ha-Gadol in "J. Q. R." vi. 425). A passage in Ab. R. N. (Recension B, xii. [ed. Schechter, p. 24]) referring to R. Akiba's early training says that he studied the Bible and the Targum; but allusions to the Targum as a special subject of study in connection with the Bible are excessively rare.
TARGUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The Jews wanted to make sure no one mixed up the Targum with the Holy Word of God. Paul's use of a targum with no angry response from Jewish Christians would have been because none of them saw Paul's letters as holy in any fashion whatsoever.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Use of the Targums date back to the Second Temple, but the Jews were very careful to make sure that they were NEVER considered scripture as Mike has blessed them because Paul included them in his letter.

TARGUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
I did not say that the Targums were in and of themselves considered scripture. I said that when the writers of Scripture quoted from some source, such as the Targum, and used it in their writings it became a part of the word of God. Paul used the quote from the Targum because it fit the subject he was addressing which was the fact that when Jesus ascended He did in fact give certain spiritual gifts.

IN LIKE MANNER, Paul quoted pagan sources. One example is in Acts 17:28 when he said, ''for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' The phrase, 'For we also are His children' is from the Cilician Aratus' work Phainomena, and as it came from the poet, it was not Scripture. But when Paul quoted it in his giving of the gospel message to the men of Athens, it was inspired. It was recorded in the Book of Acts and is a part of the Word of God.

Another example is in Titus 1:12 'One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, ''Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttens.'' That quote was from the Cretan poet and philosopher Epimenides. It was a saying which had become a proverb which referred to the low reputation of Cretans. Paul used the phrase regarding the fact that the false teachers he was warning about had the tendencies mentioned in the quote. As it came from the hand of Epimenides it was not Scripture. But it is recorded in the Book of Titus and therefore is a part of the Word of God.


Quote:
The Jews wanted to make sure no one mixed up the Targum with the Holy Word of God. Paul's use of a targum with no angry response from Jewish Christians would have been because none of them saw Paul's letters as holy in any fashion whatsoever.
The apostle Peter who was a Jew, and a Christian, equated Paul's letters with the rest of the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16).

Whether you like it or not, Paul's quotation of the third phrase reflects what the Targum says.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-20-2013 at 08:06 PM..
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I did not say that the Targums were in and of themselves considered scripture. I said that when the writers of Scripture quoted from some source, such as the Targum, and used it in their writings it became a part of the word of God. Paul used the quote from the Targum because it fit the subject he was addressing which was the fact that when Jesus ascended He did in fact give certain spiritual gifts.

IN LIKE MANNER, Paul quoted pagan sources. One example is in Acts 17:28 when he said, ''for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' The phrase, 'For we also are His children' is from the Cilician Aratus' work Phainomena, and as it came from the poet, it was not Scripture. But when Paul quoted it in his giving of the gospel message to the men of Athens, it was inspired. It was recorded in the Book of Acts and is a part of the Word of God.

Another example is in Titus 1:12 'One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, ''Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttens.'' That quote was from the Cretan poet and philosopher Epimenides. It was a saying which had become a proverb which referred to the low reputation of Cretans. Paul used the phrase regarding the fact that the false teachers he was warning about had the tendencies mentioned in the quote. As it came from the hand of Epimenides it was not Scripture. But it is recorded in the Book of Titus and therefore is a part of the Word of God.




The apostle Peter who was a Jew, and a Christian, equated Paul's letters with the rest of the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16).

Whether you like it or not, Paul's quotation of the third phrase reflects what the Targum says.
Except the apostle Peter is not the author of 2nd Peter. Again from your conservative Metzger:

Quote:

Rejection of Peter as the author of Second Peter is the most common opinion today, and is supported by one of Christianity’s most authoritative conservative biblical scholars, Bruce Metzger, (a scholar that I personally have high regard for). Metzger writes:
"Although the author of this letter calls himself ‘Simon Peter, a servant and
apostle of Jesus Christ’ (1:1), and makes reference to his being present at the
transfiguration of Jesus Christ (1:18), several features of its style and
contents have led nearly all modern scholars to regard it as the work of an
unknown author of the early second century who wrote in Peter’s name....In
light of such internal and external evidence one must conclude that 2 Peter was
drawn up sometime after A.D. 100 by an admirer of Peter who wrote under the
name of the great apostle in order to give his letter greater authority"
(The New Testament, its background, growth, and content, pg. 258).

"Unlike the style of 1 Peter, which is written in fluent koine Greek, the
style of 2 Peter is almost pseudo-literary. The wording is unusual, artificial,
and often obscure; it is the one book in the New Testament which gains by
translation. Though some have suggested that the marked difference in style
between the two letters might be accounted for by supposing them to be the work
of different amanuenses, several passages of 2 Peter point to a date long after Peter’s lifetime" (The New Testament, pg. 258).

"The second chapter of 2 Peter embodies most of the little letter of Jude,
which probably date from the later part of the first century"
(The New Testament, pg. 258).
2nd Peter Authorship - Who wrote 2nd Peter?

The authorship of 2nd Peter was even questioned by many of the early church fathers.

Quote:
Prior to being recognized as canonical by the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in the fourth century, Second Peter was in much dispute. The text was quoted less and discussed more by early Christians than any other book of the New Testament as the Christian historian Eusebius once acknowledged: "that which is called the second, we have not, indeed, understood to be embodied with the sacred books, yet as it appeared useful to many, it was studiously read with the other Scriptures"(H.E. 3.3). Even Origen, who lived about a century (ca. A.D. 185-253) before Eusebius, mentioned that Peter "left one epistle undisputed," and that "the second left by him, for on this there is some doubt"
same source

But I am impressed with some of your other information that you are making a scholastic effort. Keep it up. If you keep improving I'll soon be ready to challenge you that Paul was, in fact, looked upon poorly by the mother assembly of Christians in Jerusalem. And how James letter was sent to Paul's churches specifically to refute Paul's "grace only" teaching! And the conflict between Jerusalem Christians and Paul was quite great as can be noted with a careful study of the scriptures.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:19 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,638,002 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
The Jews wanted to make sure no one mixed up the Targum with the Holy Word of God. Paul's use of a targum with no angry response from Jewish Christians would have been because none of them saw Paul's letters as holy in any fashion whatsoever.
Yes, I believe the early christians and the writers themselves did not think of their writings as 'Holy Scripture.' There was a whole thread on why I thought this the case going over the pertinent verses. See Is the New Testament Inspired Scriptures?

Quote:
The apostle Peter who was a Jew, and a Christian, equated Paul's letters with the rest of the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16).
It can be well argued that 2 Peter was not written by Peter. One reason is, which has to do with the above point, is that it (and only it) mentions Paul's letters (plural) as a corpus of letters - something that would not have been likely to have been recognized during Peter or Paul's lifetime.

Last edited by Shiloh1; 10-21-2013 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:39 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,638,002 times
Reputation: 1860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Writing down the targum was prohibited; nevertheless, some targumatic writings appeared as early as the middle of the first century CE. [1

1.] ^ a b Schühlein, Franz (1912), Targum, New York: Robert Appleton Company

Targum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ephesians was written around 57-62 AD.

The reason why Paul quoted the Targum has already been explained.
Mike I am not sure what you are saying - are you saying that Paul actually quoted a written targum regarding Ps.? I do not think Paul quoted any written targum since his letter to the Eph. was to early and particularly because there was no written targum on the Ps. that early I may be mistaken but you still have not saud, directly, that he is quoting a written targum. If so please point it out.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,287 posts, read 5,497,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Yes, I believe the early christians and the writers themselves did not think of their writings as 'Holy Scripture.' There was a whole thread on why I thought this the case going over the pertinent verses. See Is the New Testament Inspired Scriptures?



It can be well argued that 2 Peter was not written by Peter. One reason is, which has to do with the above point, is that it (and only it) mentions Paul's letters (plural) as a corpus of letters - something that would not have been likely to have been recognized during Peter or Paul's lifetime.
Yes, I'm not sure why Moderator cut: deleted decided that information in Mike's post about 2nd Peter was relevant and my argument that 2nd Peter was in fact the most questionable of all the early letters with regard to authenticity. Mike's argument being that once something is quoted it becomes inerrant scripture--even if it came from a poem written by a pagan--a most interesting comment, and one fraught with slippery slopes.

I felt my response was to a classic case of point and rebuttal, case being argument that Peter, an apostle, considered Paul's letters to be genuine therefore quoting the Targum was okay, rebuttal, Peter was not the author of 2nd Peter, so claiming Peter's endorsement of a Targum quote is invalid.

Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 10-22-2013 at 06:49 AM.. Reason: References to mod actions are in violation of the TOS.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdMaster View Post
The NT is nothing more than commentary on the OT.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written..." meaning already written in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Jesus fulfilled what was written in the Hebrew Scriptures proving he was God's Anointed or expected Messiah - Luke 3 v 15

The Christian NT Scriptures have corresponding or parallel reference passages or verses found in the Hebrew OT.
Since the Bible is not written ABS like a dictionary, then a comprehensive concordance can serve as a quick locator by topic or subject arrangement to the Hebrew Scriptures or visa versa.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdMaster View Post
Not all OT prophecy has been fulfilled.
...and not fulfilled until Jesus' messianic 1000-year reign over earth.- Psalms 72 vs 8, 12-14; 46 v 9; 37 vs 11,29
Then we will see the fulfillment of Isaiah [ 2 v 4; 25 v 8; 65 vs 21-25 ] ; Micah [ 4 vs 3,4 ], etc.
Jesus will then fulfill God's promise to Abraham that all families of earth will be blessed, and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the healing or curing of earth's nations.- Genesis 12 v 3; 22 v 18; Revelation 22 v 2.

P. S. please also see previous post # 30
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:08 PM
 
21,883 posts, read 16,702,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Writing down the targum was prohibited; nevertheless, some targumatic writings appeared as early as the middle of the first century CE. [1

1.] ^ a b Schühlein, Franz (1912), Targum, New York: Robert Appleton Company

Targum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ephesians was written around 57-62 AD.

The reason why Paul quoted the Targum has already been explained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Mike I am not sure what you are saying - are you saying that Paul actually quoted a written targum regarding Ps.? I do not think Paul quoted any written targum since his letter to the Eph. was to early and particularly because there was no written targum on the Ps. that early I may be mistaken but you still have not saud, directly, that he is quoting a written targum. If so please point it out.
While some of the Targums were written by the middle of the 1st century, I don't know if the Psalms were. But whether Paul quoted the written Targum or referred to the oral form is irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that Paul's quotation reflects the Targum. Here is what the Targum says;
Ketubim Targum Psalm 68
19. You ascended to the firmament, O prophet Moses; you captured captives, you taught the words of Torah, you gave gifts to the sons of men, and even the stubborn who are converted turn in repentance, [and] the glorious presence of the Lord God abides upon them.
Paul wrote,
Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, ''When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.''

In post #16 I posted this comment of Dr. Allen P. Ross, Professor of Old Testament studies, from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.
Psalm 68:18 was referred to by Paul in Ephesians 4:8 (cf. comments there). However, rather than quoting the Hebrew, Paul apparently followed the Jewish interpretation of the day (the Targum), which paraphrased this verse as follows: ''You did ascend to the firmament, O Prophet Moses! You led captivity captive; you taught the words of the Law; you gave [not received,' as in the Heb.] gifts to the sons of men.'' (This interpretation saw Moses as God's representative.) Paul followed this Jewish exegesis because it explained that the conqueror distributed the gifts to His loyal subjects. The apostle applied that idea to Christ's victory over the forces of evil and His granting spiritual gifts (cf. Eph. 4:11) to those on His side. By this analogy (based more on the Jewish interpretation of the psalm than on the exact Heb. wording) Paul emphasized the greatness of believers' spiritual victory in Christ. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 843]
Dr. Ross, said that Paul apparently followed the Targum. Now unless you or anyone else knows of some other source that Paul might have quoted, then the Targum is the logical conclusion as the source from which Paul quoted, and again, for the reason already given.

Now, do you or anyone else know of some other source from which Paul might have quoted when he wrote, ''and He gave gifts to men.''?
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