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Old 10-18-2013, 07:18 PM
 
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Dr. Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew, and director of Ariel Ministries which exists to evangelize Jewish people, and to disciple both Jewish and Gentile believers through intensive Bible teaching from a Jewish perspective, states that there are four ways in which the New Testament writers quoted the Old Testament.

HOW THE NEW TESTAMENT QUOTES THE OLD TESTAMENT | Ariel Ministries

or

Ariel Staff | Ariel Ministries In this site you have to page down a bit for the specific study.


1.) Literal Prophecy Plus Literal Fulfillment: Pshat; Matthew 2:5 6 which quotes Micah 5:2 is an example of this kind of quotation.

2.) Literal Plus Typical: Remez; Matthew 2:15 which quotes Hosea 11:1 provides an example of this kind of quote.

3.) Literal Plus Application: Drash; Matthew 2:17-18 which quotes Jeremiah 31:15 regarding Rachel weeping for her children is an example of this kind of quotation.
Excerpt:
That verse is quoted in the New Testament because of one point of similarity. It is not a literal fulfillment nor a full-scale typology, but simply an application because of some point of similarity. In this case, the one point of similarity was Jewish mothers weeping for sons they would never see again because Herod had slaughtered all the males of Bethlehem from the age of two years old and under. Therefore, because of one point of similarity, the New Testament quotes the Old Testament as an application only.
4.) Summation: Sod; in which not a single prophet is quoted, but rather, the NT author is summarizing what the prophets said. Matthew 2:23 provides an example of this kind of quotation.


For the full details, go into one of the two sites.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:57 PM
 
400 posts, read 372,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Dr. Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew, and director of Ariel Ministries which exists to evangelize Jewish people, and to disciple both Jewish and Gentile believers through intensive Bible teaching from a Jewish perspective, states that there are four ways in which the New Testament writers quoted the Old Testament.

HOW THE NEW TESTAMENT QUOTES THE OLD TESTAMENT | Ariel Ministries

or

Ariel Staff | Ariel Ministries In this site you have to page down a bit for the specific study.


1.) Literal Prophecy Plus Literal Fulfillment: Pshat; Matthew 2:5 6 which quotes Micah 5:2 is an example of this kind of quotation.

2.) Literal Plus Typical: Remez; Matthew 2:15 which quotes Hosea 11:1 provides an example of this kind of quote.

3.) Literal Plus Application: Drash; Matthew 2:17-18 which quotes Jeremiah 31:15 regarding Rachel weeping for her children is an example of this kind of quotation.
Excerpt:
That verse is quoted in the New Testament because of one point of similarity. It is not a literal fulfillment nor a full-scale typology, but simply an application because of some point of similarity. In this case, the one point of similarity was Jewish mothers weeping for sons they would never see again because Herod had slaughtered all the males of Bethlehem from the age of two years old and under. Therefore, because of one point of similarity, the New Testament quotes the Old Testament as an application only.
4.) Summation: Sod; in which not a single prophet is quoted, but rather, the NT author is summarizing what the prophets said. Matthew 2:23 provides an example of this kind of quotation.


For the full details, go into one of the two sites.
This is crazy. I was on the exact same website the other day and read the bio on Dr. Fruchtenbaum. Here is another site which provides a table of OT quotes in the NT. This site is by Joel Kalvesmaki. He has his PhD in Early Christian Studies from Catholic University of America and is editor of Byzantine Studies at Dumbarton Oaks.
Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:03 PM
 
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The NT is nothing more than commentary on the OT.
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Florida -
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdMaster View Post
The NT is nothing more than commentary on the OT.
Actually, the NT and Jesus Christ are the 'fulfillment' of the OT. The OT documents the nature of man from the beginning and reveals God's interaction with and plan for mankind. (The 'law', for example, is a 'teacher that leads mankind to Christ). The NT and Christ 'move' the law from the head to the heart, which has always been God's plan, from the beginning. (God remains unchanged throughout the OT and NT).
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
This is crazy. I was on the exact same website the other day and read the bio on Dr. Fruchtenbaum. Here is another site which provides a table of OT quotes in the NT. This site is by Joel Kalvesmaki. He has his PhD in Early Christian Studies from Catholic University of America and is editor of Byzantine Studies at Dumbarton Oaks.
Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation
Dr. Fruchtenbaum is very knowledgeable. I like his Messianic Bible Studies.

That's a good comparison chart. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:00 PM
 
183 posts, read 112,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Actually, the NT and Jesus Christ are the 'fulfillment' of the OT. The OT documents the nature of man from the beginning and reveals God's interaction with and plan for mankind. (The 'law', for example, is a 'teacher that leads mankind to Christ). The NT and Christ 'move' the law from the head to the heart, which has always been God's plan, from the beginning. (God remains unchanged throughout the OT and NT).




Not all OT prophecy has been fulfilled.
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Actually, the NT and Jesus Christ are the 'fulfillment' of the OT. The OT documents the nature of man from the beginning and reveals God's interaction with and plan for mankind. (The 'law', for example, is a 'teacher that leads mankind to Christ). The NT and Christ 'move' the law from the head to the heart, which has always been God's plan, from the beginning. (God remains unchanged throughout the OT and NT).
This can't be stressed enough. You nailed it!
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Versailles, KY
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Default More interesting are the MISQOUTES in the NT from the OT

First example:
Hebrews 8:7-9 vs Jeremiah 31:32

Hebrews 8:7-9

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

(the bolded text above is not actually found in the OT but is changed from the following:

Jeremiah 31:32

It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, declares the Lord.


Some Christians claim Paul was reading from the Septuagint rather than Hebrew, but Paul was fluent in Hebrew and if he believed, as stated in I Timothy that "all scripture (meaning the OT) came from God" then why wouldn't he rely on the unblemished Hebrew rather than a flawed translation?

Second example
Ephesians 4:8 vs Psalm 68:18

Ephesians 4:8

That is why it says, "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."

(portion highlighted above is not found in the OT but changed in the NT as bolded below)

Psalm 68:18

When you ascended on high, you led captive in your train; you received gifts from men, even from the rebellious? that you, Oh Lord God, might live there.

But the Hebrew word for received in Psalm 68:18 is laqach which is always translated as take, take away, bring, received. It could never mean "gave" which is the exact opposite of what Paul wrote.

John Gill's commentary attempts to defend Paul by saying he used a Syriac translation. But what is going on here? God inspires a man who speaks Hebrew fluently to use fallible translations of the Septuagint in one instance and a Syriacan translation in the other? Why would he take translations that even in his time had made mistakes from the Hebrew?


There are many more, it's just that those two are ones I'm aware of and which point out that the NT itself is prone to error its quotes from the OT which the NT declares to be infallible.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:32 PM
 
17,252 posts, read 12,882,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
First example:
Hebrews 8:7-9 vs Jeremiah 31:32

Hebrews 8:7-9

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

(the bolded text above is not actually found in the OT but is changed from the following:

Jeremiah 31:32

It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, declares the Lord.


Some Christians claim Paul was reading from the Septuagint rather than Hebrew, but Paul was fluent in Hebrew and if he believed, as stated in I Timothy that "all scripture (meaning the OT) came from God" then why wouldn't he rely on the unblemished Hebrew rather than a flawed translation?

Second example
Ephesians 4:8 vs Psalm 68:18

Ephesians 4:8

That is why it says, "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."

(portion highlighted above is not found in the OT but changed in the NT as bolded below)

Psalm 68:18

When you ascended on high, you led captive in your train; you received gifts from men, even from the rebellious? that you, Oh Lord God, might live there.

But the Hebrew word for received in Psalm 68:18 is laqach which is always translated as take, take away, bring, received. It could never mean "gave" which is the exact opposite of what Paul wrote.

John Gill's commentary attempts to defend Paul by saying he used a Syriac translation. But what is going on here? God inspires a man who speaks Hebrew fluently to use fallible translations of the Septuagint in one instance and a Syriacan translation in the other? Why would he take translations that even in his time had made mistakes from the Hebrew?


There are many more, it's just that those two are ones I'm aware of and which point out that the NT itself is prone to error its quotes from the OT which the NT declares to be infallible.
I am just going to address one of your examples. I'll address the second example. Paul's quotation of Psalm 68:18 in Ephesians 4:8.

What you need to understand is that the NT writers were free with their quotations and often paraphrased. As well, they might quote from the Hebrew Scriptures, or from the Septuagint, or from the Jewish Targums which themselves were paraphrases.

In the case of Paul's quotation of Psalm 68:18, in the first two phrases Paul wrote, ''When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives,'' which pretty much follows the Hebrew of Psalm 68:18 which says 'You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;'. Paul did change it from the second person to the third person however. But in the third phrase Paul wrote, ''and he gave gifts to men.'', whereas the Hebrew says, ''You have received gifts among men,''.

In the third phrase Paul seems to have followed Ketubim Targum Psalm 68 which is as follows.
19. You ascended to the firmament, O prophet Moses; you captured captives, you taught the words of Torah, you gave gifts to the sons of men, and even the stubborn who are converted turn in repentance, [and] the glorious presence of the Lord God abides upon them. Esnoga Bet Emunah - 227 Millset Chase - San Antonio, Texas 78253
The Targum says 'you gave gifts to the sons of men.'

Now why did Paul quote from Ketubim Targum Psalm 68?

The Bible Knowledge Commentary says this;
Psalm 68:18 was referred to by Paul in Ephesians 4:8 (cf. comments there). However, rather than quoting the Hebrew, Paul apparently followed the Jewish interpretation of the day (the Targum), which paraphrased this verse as follows: ''You did ascend to the firmament, O Prophet Moses! You led captivity captive; you taught the words of the Law; you gave [not received,' as in the Heb.] gifts to the sons of men.'' (This interpretation saw Moses as God's representative.) Paul followed this Jewish exegesis because it explained that the conqueror distributed the gifts to His loyal subjects. The apostle applied that idea to Christ's victory over the forces of evil and His granting spiritual gifts (cf. Eph. 4:11) to those on His side. By this analogy (based more on the Jewish interpretation of the psalm than on the exact Heb. wording) Paul emphasized the greatness of believers' spiritual victory in Christ. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 843]
Since Paul wanted to make the point that when Christ ascended he gave the spiritual gifts of apostleship, prophecy, evangelism, and pastor and teacher as stated in Ephesians 4:18 he used the phrase from Ketubim Targum Psalm 68 to lead into that point.

Paul didn't mistakenly misquote Psalm 68:18. He adapted it in order to apply it to the point he was making.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-19-2013 at 08:44 PM..
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:04 PM
 
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It is just these types of looooosey goosey rabbinic 'interpretations' and 'types of interpretations' that render any coherent and settled meaning on what is actually being conveyed by these ambiguous verses and what is their proper application - useless. The very fact that you have numerous post-hoc justifications (read ways in which to 'see' a verse and how to apply it) just goes to show you that from the begining they struggled to find meaning in these things - so much so that you now have different levels of meaning and different way in which to inteprete them. It frankly just goes to show how desperate religous folks are and how thye will do anything to ameliorate their cognitive dissonance and try to find meaning anyway possible. As such it renders the whole process for moderns moot except for mere historical purposes.
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