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Old 10-21-2013, 09:22 AM
 
238 posts, read 229,527 times
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Paul’s warnings to the Christians in Rome are somewhat hidden and need to be pointed out.
They are written so super-tactfully that most people just gloss over them …
because they are totally engulfed in blessings, edifications, promises, exhortations, etc.!
This somewhat “sugar-coating” actually borders on lying re: the true situation of these BACs.

He is being super-tactful to these total strangers ...
because he greatly desires to be welcome to visit them and to teach them. After all ...
he is the spiritual expert, the one who was personally trained by the risen Jesus for 17 years!


Romans 8:1-14
This passage is NOT about these BACs being “in Christ”, “in the Spirit”, being saved, etc.
This passage is warning them … Walk in the Spirit, or else you will face eternal death!
The Good … (however, some of this is about where they should be, not where they are) …
being in Christ (8:1), being free from the law of sin and death (8:2), Jesus condemned sin (8:3),
being spiritually minded (8:6), being in the Spirit (8:9), God being in us (8:9,10,11), etc.
The Bad … the “good” is NOT what the passage is about.
The problem is … Being “in the Spirit” (meaning “the Spirit of God dwells in you” (8:9,11)
and “walking in the Spirit” … are two different things!
The Ugly … the warnings …

• “There is … no condemnation to those who … (walk) according to the Spirit.” (8:1)
• “the righteous requirement of the law … (walk) according to the Spirit.” (8:4)
• “For to be carnally minded is (eternal) death” (8:6)
• “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God” (8:7)
• “brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.” (8:12)
• “For if you live according to the flesh you will die” (8:12)
• “if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (8:13)
• “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” (8:14)
• “we are children of God … joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him” (8:16-17)

Romans 6:15-23
This passage is NOT about these BACs having been set free from being slaves of sin.
This passage is warning them … Stop sinning, or else you will face eternal death!
Paul was giving them reasons why they do NOT have to continue to be slaves of sin.
The Good … (however, it is mostly optimism about what should be happening) …
being set free from sin and becoming slaves of righteousness (6:18),
being slaves of God they have their fruit to holiness and the end, everlasting life (6:22),
the gift of God (only for God’s elect, Rom 8:28-30) is eternal life in Christ Jesus (6:23).
The Bad … the “good” is NOT what the passage is about.
The problem is … Being set free and now being fully ABLE to live righteously,
and actually BEING righteous (practicing righteousness) … are two different things!
The Ugly … the warnings …

• “Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!” (6:15)
• “Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey …?” (6:16)
Choose to be …
“(slaves) of sin leading to death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness” (6:16)
• “I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh …
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” (6:19)
In times past, they were free … they had NO choice to make (to sin or not to sin):
“For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.” (6:20)
And you thought this was only for unbelievers! “the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (6:23)
John also warned that it was necessary to practice righteousness:
“… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
“… let no one deceive you. (Only) he who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

Who (other than Clint Eastwood) is up to the task of actually understanding
Paul's crafty writing to the Roman Christians?
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,316 posts, read 5,509,650 times
Reputation: 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by evangelist-77 View Post
Paul’s warnings to the Christians in Rome are somewhat hidden and need to be pointed out.
They are written so super-tactfully that most people just gloss over them …
because they are totally engulfed in blessings, edifications, promises, exhortations, etc.!
This somewhat “sugar-coating” actually borders on lying re: the true situation of these BACs.

He is being super-tactful to these total strangers ...
because he greatly desires to be welcome to visit them and to teach them. After all ...
he is the spiritual expert, the one who was personally trained by the risen Jesus for 17 years!

Romans 8:1-14
This passage is NOT about these BACs being “in Christ”, “in the Spirit”, being saved, etc.
This passage is warning them … Walk in the Spirit, or else you will face eternal death!
The Good … (however, some of this is about where they should be, not where they are) …
being in Christ (8:1), being free from the law of sin and death (8:2), Jesus condemned sin (8:3),
being spiritually minded (8:6), being in the Spirit (8:9), God being in us (8:9,10,11), etc.
The Bad … the “good” is NOT what the passage is about.
The problem is … Being “in the Spirit” (meaning “the Spirit of God dwells in you” (8:9,11)
and “walking in the Spirit” … are two different things!
The Ugly … the warnings …


• “There is … no condemnation to those who … (walk) according to the Spirit.” (8:1)
• “the righteous requirement of the law … (walk) according to the Spirit.” (8:4)
• “For to be carnally minded is (eternal) death” (8:6)
• “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God” (8:7)
• “brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.” (8:12)
• “For if you live according to the flesh you will die” (8:12)
• “if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (8:13)
• “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” (8:14)
• “we are children of God … joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him” (8:16-17)

Romans 6:15-23
This passage is NOT about these BACs having been set free from being slaves of sin.
This passage is warning them … Stop sinning, or else you will face eternal death!
Paul was giving them reasons why they do NOT have to continue to be slaves of sin.
The Good … (however, it is mostly optimism about what should be happening) …
being set free from sin and becoming slaves of righteousness (6:18),
being slaves of God they have their fruit to holiness and the end, everlasting life (6:22),
the gift of God (only for God’s elect, Rom 8:28-30) is eternal life in Christ Jesus (6:23).
The Bad … the “good” is NOT what the passage is about.
The problem is … Being set free and now being fully ABLE to live righteously,
and actually BEING righteous (practicing righteousness) … are two different things!
The Ugly … the warnings …


• “Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!” (6:15)
• “Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey …?” (6:16)
Choose to be …
“(slaves) of sin leading to death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness” (6:16)
• “I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh …
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” (6:19)
In times past, they were free … they had NO choice to make (to sin or not to sin):
“For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.” (6:20)
And you thought this was only for unbelievers! “the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (6:23)
John also warned that it was necessary to practice righteousness:
“… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
“… let no one deceive you. (Only) he who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

Who (other than Clint Eastwood) is up to the task of actually understanding
Paul's crafty writing to the Roman Christians?
I personally agree with most of what you point out here. It is important to note, however, that Paul had a falling out with the Christians in Jerusalem when he began to teach JEWS, not just Gentiles, that obedience to the law (of Moses) was unnecessary. The Jerusalem Jewish Christians, led by James, had agreed it would be an unnecessary burden turn Gentiles into Jews (circumcision). They did NOT, however, excuse Jewish Christians from the same obligation. And they did state that Gentiles should not completely be removed from some parts of Jewish Christian faith--such as giving to the poor (a work of righteousness in their eyes).

Obviously there were some parts of Paul's "faith only" and OSAS teachings that were worrisome to the Jerusalem Jewish Christians. Enough so, that they called Paul back to Jerusalem to give an accounting of himself and to purify himself for his apparently misleading teaching with the Nazarite vow, a ritual that would end in animal sacrifice.
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:59 AM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,386 posts, read 8,921,820 times
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I believe the implication in 8:1 is that "those in Christ" no longer walk in "the flesh", but rather in "the Spirit".

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:47 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,653,024 times
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Yet, a chapter earlier, in Rom 7:19 Paul stated "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."

If you're going to impose your view of works-salvation on Romans 8, then Paul is damned.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:20 PM
 
8,111 posts, read 7,086,230 times
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OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved , comes with conditions of obedience , ...See even Jesus said that if His children, the very elect where to fall into iniquity , and went unrepentant , then at the judgment seat Jesus said He would reject this faithless people and say ``I don`t know you , you evil doers ``........... See these people where saved to receive this gifts and calling of Jesus , but conditions of iniquity and sin took the faith from them , and Holy spirit will block faithlessness , still there are conditions as some of these people could have lost their mind , and then they could still be saved ........ Or ignorant in the discernment of the spirit , and Jesus would have to judge them different then people with different calling , as the Lord Is the Judge , ......People who walk away from Christ and turn to the world need to repent and turn to Christ or be lost ..... So if you got sin then you should be repenting and trying to change for Jesus
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:44 PM
 
238 posts, read 229,527 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved , comes with conditions of obedience , ...See even Jesus said that if His children, the very elect where to fall into iniquity , and went unrepentant , then at the judgment seat Jesus said He would reject this faithless people and say ``I don`t know you , you evil doers ``........... See these people where saved to receive this gifts and calling of Jesus , but conditions of iniquity and sin took the faith from them , and Holy spirit will block faithlessness , still there are conditions as some of these people could have lost their mind , and then they could still be saved ........ Or ignorant in the discernment of the spirit , and Jesus would have to judge them different then people with different calling , as the Lord Is the Judge , ......People who walk away from Christ and turn to the world need to repent and turn to Christ or be lost ..... So if you got sin then you should be repenting and trying to change for Jesus
Congrats ... but most BACs cannot get past the "by grace you are saved"
... and are overjoyed to trust in what they've been taught (OSAS).

Satan had his reasons for starting OSAS.
The churches have their reasons for continuing it.

Ditto for the false doctrine of cessationism, except that it has been much more harmful.

However, man's free will is KING ... and God will not interfere with it.
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Old 11-03-2013, 09:43 AM
 
Location: US
28,008 posts, read 15,092,150 times
Reputation: 1755
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
How about some scriptures to back your argument rather than your usual sarcastic 1 liners. If all you can say is uhh no, You are wrong, No it does not and other 1 liners with no scriptures, your posts will always mean nothing to the argument.

Ok...Man does not have free will...And Satan is a tool of God...

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-07-2013 at 07:24 AM.. Reason: Thank you :)
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:23 PM
 
794 posts, read 678,069 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved , comes with conditions of obedience , ...See even Jesus said that if His children, the very elect where to fall into iniquity , and went unrepentant , then at the judgment seat Jesus said He would reject this faithless people and say ``I don`t know you , you evil doers ``........... See these people where saved to receive this gifts and calling of Jesus , but conditions of iniquity and sin took the faith from them , and Holy spirit will block faithlessness , still there are conditions as some of these people could have lost their mind , and then they could still be saved ........ Or ignorant in the discernment of the spirit , and Jesus would have to judge them different then people with different calling , as the Lord Is the Judge , ......People who walk away from Christ and turn to the world need to repent and turn to Christ or be lost ..... So if you got sin then you should be repenting and trying to change for Jesus
How can you even mention OSAS and then add conditions to it. It is no longer OSAS if there are conditions. Sin does not separate the believer from God's grace. In fact the bible says where sin increases, grace super abounds. Not where sin increases punishment super abounds. If you believe sin can take away someone's salvation then you must agree that sin has more power than Jesus' sacrifice. If something, anything for that matter can take away what Jesus gave us, then you must agree that whatever that thing is that took it away has more power than Jesus. When you believe in Jesus for your salvation you are saved forever and cannot lose your salvation. If you believe you can lose it, then you believe you got it because you obeyed. But you aren't saved because you obeyed. You are saved because Jesus obeyed. (Romans 5:19) So why do people entertain this thought of you are saved by grace but have to maintain it by works if in the first place you didn't obtain salvation by obedience in the first place? How can disobedience take away what your obedience never gave you?
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:45 PM
 
238 posts, read 229,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
It is no longer OSAS if there are conditions.
Yes, and that's why OSAS is a false doctrine.

Guess it's time for a new thread.
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Old 11-05-2013, 04:54 AM
 
Location: New England
32,298 posts, read 21,149,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evangelist-77 View Post
Yes, and that's why OSAS is a false doctrine.

Guess it's time for a new thread.
At the end of the day, whether it is a false doctrine or not( I happen to believe it is), if someone believing in it, is abiding in the love of a God and loving their neighbor as themselves, is it really affecting anything?.
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