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Old 10-22-2013, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
How true. Even Jesus feared in the Garden of Gethsemane and wished the cup of suffering would not have to be. That fear led to depression ["man of sorrows and aquatinted with grief"/depression] as He said, MK 14:34 "And said unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry you here, and watch."

But He overcame by prayer and grace from the Father to except the only plan of the Father. And so shall we in like manner.
Being sorrowful doesn't equate to death.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo-50 View Post
sadly MANY don't understand what Jehovah God words meant, through his faithful servant and Jesus follower Paul. Here at ,(Heb. 2:14,15), Paul speaks of Jesus ,who WILL destroy satan, as well as death. Paul wasn't speaking of NOT dying in satan's worldly system, here and now. Because MANY will still die, whether they tried their best serve Jehovah God,(Exo. 6:3). and tried hard to follow Jesus, (Luke9:23 and John17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world), or not. MANY of those were NOT afraid to die, because they knew they had the hope of being resurrected. And they knew Jehovah God and Jesus sees death as sleep, which MANY does wake from ,(Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt). Here,(Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wiltthou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption). And here, (1 Cor.15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead). They feared death in the sense of NOT having the gift of eternal life. So Paul WASN'T referring to dying in that sense per say.


Then there were does who feared death, in the days of Noah, and the day Sodom and Gomorrah, was destroyed. Though Jesus blood made a way for us to live, through his death , for our sins were wiped clean once we die ,(Rom. 6:7 and Rom. 6:23). with the exception of those who died in day of the Flood, and in Sodom. Because they died at the hands of Jehovah God, they WON'T be resurrected. Jesus showed this when he told his followers to witness about his Father's kingdom from door todoor. What'll happen to those who didn't want to listen ,(Matt.10:5-13 and verses 14,15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city).


So to just being afraid to die, in this sense, doesn't mean one is saved, though many would say it does. Jesus said this ,(Matt.24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall besaved). He didn't mean if one's scared of death, they will live. He meant one who endures, basically those who fights off satan MANY tricks ,(Ephe.6:11,12). one who tries hard to do Jesus Father's... WILL ,(Matt.7:21), will be saved). Moses told the Israelites to FEAR Jehovah God ,(Duet. 6:13Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God ,and serve him, and shalt swear by his name).(where there's TWO titles, one should have been a name. It's like saying president , president!, removing his name. Anyway, fear death, basically means to live in a way that pleases Jesus and his Father Jehovah God. This will cause one to be saved, and resurrected even if they die from sickness, old age, etc. peace
I believe that the Word of God is showing that the fear of death is what keeps us in bondage to sin. By fearing to die we cater to the flesh to put priority on sustaining its needs and wants. This "catering to the flesh" is contrary to the Spirit of God and in direct opposition to the command to put others before us for this "catering to the flesh" puts self before others.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "eternal". It does not indicate a state of being but a length of time. So "eternal separation" simply explains how long the separation will last.

As for "fearing death". I have seen many older Christians who welcomed death. I think the only real fear if you want to call it that for a Christian is the method of death and the suffering that may be attached to it. While I know the best thing that will ever happen to me in this life is to pass on to my eternal state, I do pray it will be a peaceful passing and not become a hardship on my wife and children. Not to mention I would like to avoid any pain or suffering if possible as well.
I understand Eternal as to mean "without beginning and without end". So "eternal separation" would imply that someone was always separate and never became separated.

Apostle Paul was clearly put to the trials and if he had fear of death, I don't know how he could have even remained sane:

2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:17 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,184,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I understand Eternal as to mean "without beginning and without end". So "eternal separation" would imply that someone was always separate and never became separated..
That "without beginning and without end" applies when only God is concerned
eternal < --------------------------------------------------- God ---------- > eternal
eternal applies to humanity with the latter half "without end"
______________________________________________ the created -> eternal
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That "without beginning and without end" applies when only God is concerned
eternal < --------------------------------------------------- God ---------- > eternal
eternal applies to humanity with the latter half "without end"
______________________________________________ the created -> eternal
That is how you undertand it. I believe the word "eternal" means without beginning and without end. So if someone wants to use the phrase "eternal separation" to me then it means something different then what it would mean to you.

Even if you believe it to believe perpetual, unending, then I don't see a reference of support in the Bible for that either. I find the contrary.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:39 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
That is how you undertand it. I believe the word "eternal" means without beginning and without end. So if someone wants to use the phrase "eternal separation" to me then it means something different then what it would mean to you.

Even if you believe it to believe perpetual, unending, then I don't see a reference of support in the Bible for that either. I find the contrary.
The reason why I understand it that way is quite simple .... it's the truth.

Just like you saying "I don't see a reference" is for me hearing you actually say "I don't want to see a reference"
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The reason why I understand it that way is quite simple .... it's the truth.

Just like you saying "I don't see a reference" is for me hearing you actually say "I don't want to see a reference"
Surely, you undertanding that I don't just believe everyone because they say "it's the truth". If you have some Biblical evidence to support "eternal separation" then I would consider it.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:15 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Surely, you undertanding that I don't just believe everyone because they say "it's the truth". If you have some Biblical evidence to support "eternal separation" then I would consider it.
Likewise ... your refusal isn't true just because you say so. If you have Biblical evidence to support "eternal non-separation", then most often within the same sentences I can show where Jesus speaks of the other as the opposite consequence.

So it's a matter of being intellectually honest ... which nobody but yourself can force you to be.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Likewise ... your refusal isn't true just because you say so. If you have Biblical evidence to support "eternal non-separation", then most often within the same sentences I can show where Jesus speaks of the other as the opposite consequence.

So it's a matter of being intellectually honest ... which nobody but yourself can force you to be.
We'll let me ask you the following and you tell me which ones you don't believe:

1.) The Devil has the power of death.
2.) The Devil's power will be destroyed.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:39 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,184,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
We'll let me ask you the following and you tell me which ones you don't believe:

1.) The Devil has the power of death.
2.) The Devil's power will be destroyed.
which topic are you going to stay with ... or is this going to be follow the random bouncing ball?
  • "eternal non-separation" vs "eternal separation"
    • or
  • 1) and 2)
    • or
  • If you fear death, are you saved?
because it seems that with your misunderstanding of "eternal" also closely shadows the misunderstanding of the word "death" when used by Jesus in the Bible.
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