U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-22-2013, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,826,543 times
Reputation: 581

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
which topic are you going to stay with ... or is this going to be follow the random bouncing ball?
  • "eternal non-separation" vs "eternal separation"
    • or
  • 1) and 2)
    • or
  • If you fear death, are you saved?
because it seems that with your misunderstanding of "eternal" also closely shadows the misunderstanding of the word "death" when used by Jesus in the Bible.
I'm just noting that you really didn't answer TO the question posed. I think that tells me more about the problem with the understanding of doctrine of "eternal separation" from someone that seems to embrace it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-22-2013, 01:56 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,021,103 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Being sorrowful doesn't equate to death.
No, but in this case because Jesus knew He was about to die, it created great sorrow in Him. Why? Because He is human and identifies with us on that level but because He overcame, we will also because we now identify with His Divinity to do so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,339 posts, read 5,517,669 times
Reputation: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
If your fear dieing, are you really currently in the "saved" state?


Can you really call yourself "saved" at this time if your still in fear of death? Wasn't Jesus mission to remove us from the power of death? If we are fearful of dieing then we are still under the bondage of death which comes by the power of death and means that the Devil still has power over us:


Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
I heard a preacher describe it this way.

He was on a plane that was traveling through a very bad storm. The plane was being tossed every which way. The person he was sitting next to, knew he was a Christian minister, and said to him, "I guess you're not worried whether or not this plane will crash since you believe you're going to heaven."

The minister said, "I thought to myself, I'm saved and going to heaven, but I don't want to be on the next load going there."

Some of those that apparently do NOT fear death, are those whose actions Christians would not consider honoring God, such as suicide by just about any means and despite what those doing so would think to be a "noble" purpose in some instances.

God gave life and He gave it that we might use it fully for His purpose, and not spend a lot of time fretting over what is inevitable. The real questions for Christians are about LIFE, not about death.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,826,543 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
No, but in this case because Jesus knew He was about to die, it created great sorrow in Him. Why? Because He is human and identifies with us on that level but because He overcame, we will also because we now identify with His Divinity to do so.
Again, sorrow doesn't equate to death and you don't know why He was sorrowful. He could have been grieved about the fact that His Apostles were now going to be conflicted for a bit as Peter surely was when he denied Him three times.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,826,543 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I heard a preacher describe it this way.

He was on a plane that was traveling through a very bad storm. The plane was being tossed every which way. The person he was sitting next to, knew he was a Christian minister, and said to him, "I guess you're not worried whether or not this plane will crash since you believe you're going to heaven."

The minister said, "I thought to myself, I'm saved and going to heaven, but I don't want to be on the next load going there."

Some of those that apparently do NOT fear death, are those whose actions Christians would not consider honoring God, such as suicide by just about any means and despite what those doing so would think to be a "noble" purpose in some instances.

God gave life and He gave it that we might use it fully for His purpose, and not spend a lot of time fretting over what is inevitable. The real questions for Christians are about LIFE, not about death.
There is not question that Christian should be all about Live but you can't have the appreciation of Life without death. It is the contrast. I believe the very message of death is much more significant. Again, the scriptures show that fear of death is the by the power of the devil. If we fear death - then that is bondage to the power of the Devil.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 910,210 times
Reputation: 295
I don't see why we need to worry that if we worry or fear death we are not saved, lol. Too much to wonder about. I think that Paul called death an enemy. If death is an enemy, then it is natural to fear it. Courage doesn't mean you don't fear things, it means you face your fear in order to move ahead or proect something or someone and that's the best way. Our mortal bodies are subject to fears. If we've experienced pain, we certainly don't really want to experience it again. Most of us, I believe, fear the process of dying more than what comes after death. As Christians, we should be looking forward to meeting our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I believe that death is sleep, the deep sleep where you are not aware of any passage of time, etc. I can see that that is not desirable before the next age arrives as then we are neither in the world, experiencing life or any love of God or each other. If death were a transition from this mortal, frusrating life to something wonderful, how is death an enemy? And I didn't see Paul qualify it as being an enemy for the 'unsaved.' I would think it ok to not want to rush headlong into dangerous situations if you still have love, marriage, kids, good things to look forward to. There are also battles that are worth risking or even giving up your life for. But no one should tell you how to feel. That's my opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,339 posts, read 5,517,669 times
Reputation: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
There is not question that Christian should be all about Live but you can't have the appreciation of Life without death. It is the contrast. I believe the very message of death is much more significant. Again, the scriptures show that fear of death is the by the power of the devil. If we fear death - then that is bondage to the power of the Devil.
trettep, I see no reason to think about it one way or the other. It will come when it comes. But life is facing us every single day. Concentrating on the last day, worrying about it, or even considering it, is for those who are truly in bondage.

That said, I'm not looking forward to being on the very next load to heaven!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,826,543 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I don't see why we need to worry that if we worry or fear death we are not saved, lol. Too much to wonder about. I think that Paul called death an enemy. If death is an enemy, then it is natural to fear it. Courage doesn't mean you don't fear things, it means you face your fear in order to move ahead or proect something or someone and that's the best way. Our mortal bodies are subject to fears. If we've experienced pain, we certainly don't really want to experience it again. Most of us, I believe, fear the process of dying more than what comes after death. As Christians, we should be looking forward to meeting our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I believe that death is sleep, the deep sleep where you are not aware of any passage of time, etc. I can see that that is not desirable before the next age arrives as then we are neither in the world, experiencing life or any love of God or each other. If death were a transition from this mortal, frusrating life to something wonderful, how is death an enemy? And I didn't see Paul qualify it as being an enemy for the 'unsaved.' I would think it ok to not want to rush headlong into dangerous situations if you still have love, marriage, kids, good things to look forward to. There are also battles that are worth risking or even giving up your life for. But no one should tell you how to feel. That's my opinion.
I think that is the problem with most of the answers were going to see here. Is that they are going to be their own personal opinion rather than what the Bible is showing. It is showing that the Apostles didn't fear dieing. And they they show that such fear is contrary to the Spirit.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,826,543 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
trettep, I see no reason to think about it one way or the other. It will come when it comes. But life is facing us every single day. Concentrating on the last day, worrying about it, or even considering it, is for those who are truly in bondage.

That said, I'm not looking forward to being on the very next load to heaven!!!
We'll, I think it is important if the the Lord and the Apostles commented on it so much. I think they want us to understand what we are being saved from. They want us to understand that liberation from death is a gift of the Spirit. Now some think when I say that liberation from death is a gift that I'm referring to when we actually die but what they are showing the Bible is that death is already happening to us. If we serve the flesh we are in the bondage of death already. We can be liberated now, and I think that is the important message being given. Think about for a moment. I know I'm in that bondage right now and I know most are (even many here who believed they have the Spirit). If we are liberated from that bondage, then fear of death would not be an issue.

The Apostles knew that their witness of Christ could and would result in their persecution even to death. They welcomed it. That is the type of Spirit they had. That is not the one I have, nor many here who profess to be their followers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2013, 06:34 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,021,103 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Again, sorrow doesn't equate to death and you don't know why He was sorrowful. He could have been grieved about the fact that His Apostles were now going to be conflicted for a bit as Peter surely was when he denied Him three times.
Yes, I do know why because Scripture makes it clear. His soul was about to die, as in separation from God the Father, of which He expressed latter when He cried from the cross, MT 27:46 "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

It was for impending death of soul that caused exceeding sorrow, not concern for His Apostles of whom He knew would come to understand and all be made right.

In that moment of Spiritual blindness on the cross, He experience the death of soul like a sinner yet did not sin. But of coarse He was restored in soul before He died physically so as to prove all things are possible with God. As He was resurrected in soul so shall we sinners be also by looking to Him.

Everything in Scripture is not spelled out and so Jesus said the Spirit would guide into all the truths that are needed to appreciate spiritual things. It is called the "hidden manner" referred to in Revelation. He expects that those who have the Spirit will in due time see things beyond the surface of what is written.

What I say might not be appreciated by you or some others but others will "hear" and be comforted, edified and see that truth is more vast then one first imagined.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top