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Old 10-24-2013, 08:14 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Actually, Luther wanted to reform the church--he didn't consider it to be apostate. I believe there have always been Christians on earth since the time of Christ. I believe Jesus when he said that hell would never prevail.
It will be interesting to see if this answer will just go in one ear and out the other or will be actually comprehended.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I don't like to play the game. "My religion is better than yours." The is no such thing.
I, too, hate that game. A few posters seem to live for it, though. I wonder if Priscilla cares that they have completely derailed her thread.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:23 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Since you always ask for a verse I will post before you ask:

Matthew 16:18
New International Version (NIV)


18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.
Then by that reasoning, why do you not apply it to this when Jesus said to Peter:
Matthew 16:23
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
So what Jesus was going to build his church on in Matthew 16:18 was not Peter himself ... but on "the rock" whom Peter confessed about.


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Old 10-24-2013, 08:47 AM
 
9,898 posts, read 6,765,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Then by that reasoning, why do you not apply it to this when Jesus said to Peter:
Matthew 16:23
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
So what Jesus was going to build his church on in Matthew 16:18 was not Peter himself ... but on "the rock" whom Peter confessed about.


Peter was admonished by Jesus. No big deal!

The issue is clear, Peter was the lead disciple. His name is mentioned much more often than other disciples. Peter is always named first when the disciples show up.

Jesus also ask Peter to take care of his sheep.




John 21:15-18
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Reinstates Peter

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.”
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:11 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,188,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Peter was admonished by Jesus. No big deal!

The issue is clear, Peter was the lead disciple. His name is mentioned much more often than other disciples. Peter is always named first when the disciples show up.

Jesus also ask Peter to take care of his sheep.




John 21:15-18
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Reinstates Peter

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.”
No big deal ... ? unless you want to make it so about Matthew 16:18

John 21:15-18
Jesus Reinstates Peter because Peter decided to go back to his old profession .... in other words Peter decided to quit being a "fisher of men". It had nothing to do about being "the leader", in fact scripture indicates that James was ... Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem .....
"Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers,
to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question." Acts 15:2

"After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them" Acts 15:6
>>>>>>>> "When they finished, James spoke up" <<<<<<<< Acts 15:12
Brothers,” he said, “listen to me." ...... “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God." Acts 15:19
It was James' .... not Peter whose judgment that was followed
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:47 AM
 
9,898 posts, read 6,765,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
No big deal ... ? unless you want to make it so about Matthew 16:18

John 21:15-18
Jesus Reinstates Peter because Peter decided to go back to his old profession .... in other words Peter decided to quit being a "fisher of men". It had nothing to do about being "the leader", in fact scripture indicates that James was ... Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem .....
"Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers,
to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question." Acts 15:2

"After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them" Acts 15:6
>>>>>>>> "When they finished, James spoke up" <<<<<<<< Acts 15:12
Brothers,” he said, “listen to me." ...... “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God." Acts 15:19
It was James' .... not Peter whose judgment that was followed
The name of Peter is mentioned much more than anyone else. When there is more than one apostle in the room Peter is always recognized first. Jesus gave the keys to Peter.

Lastly, the Church of Christ, the original Church is Catholic. There were no protestants in that era. I think is futile to have the same argument over and over again. The only game in early Christianity was the Catholic Church.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The name of Peter is mentioned much more than anyone else. When there is more than one apostle in the room Peter is always recognized first. Jesus gave the keys to Peter.

Lastly, the Church of Christ, the original Church is Catholic. There were no protestants in that era. I think is futile to have the same argument over and over again. The only game in early Christianity was the Catholic Church.
And the Gnostics, which encompasses a very long list of belief-sets. And a very very long list of other Christian groups. Back then, the usage of the term "Catholic" had no reference to Rome, nor was it referring to a single denomination. Catholic just means Universal and before Constantine legalized Christianity, the variety and diversity of Christian belief and doctrine was immense. Saying that "we all belong to the same Universal Christian Church" was used the same way it is today: To help them remember that while they disagreed profoundly and often, they were all part of the same greater whole. It was a call to the disunified whole to come together and be united.

Constantine got the ball rolling on that Ecumenical Councils that ultimately led to "heresies" being stamped out and violently eradicated. The Emperor made unification of doctrine and practices a very high priority. Early post-Constantine Catholicism was quite simply the surviving collection of doctrines and beliefs. But in the pre-Constantine "The only game in early Christianity was the Catholic Church" would not mean what you're intending. Your usage and implied meaning of the phrase wouldn't make any sense to Christians of 200-300 AD.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:04 AM
 
9,898 posts, read 6,765,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
And the Gnostics, which encompasses a very long list of belief-sets. And a very very long list of other Christian groups. Back then, the usage of the term "Catholic" had no reference to Rome, nor was it referring to a single denomination. Catholic just means Universal and before Constantine legalized Christianity, the variety and diversity of Christian belief and doctrine was immense. Saying that "we all belong to the same Universal Christian Church" was used the same way it is today: To help them remember that while they disagreed profoundly and often, they were all part of the same greater whole. It was a call to the disunified whole to come together and be united.

Constantine got the ball rolling on that Ecumenical Councils that ultimately led to "heresies" being stamped out and violently eradicated. The Emperor made unification of doctrine and practices a very high priority. Early post-Constantine Catholicism was quite simply the surviving collection of doctrines and beliefs. But in the pre-Constantine "The only game in early Christianity was the Catholic Church" would not mean what you're intending. Your usage and implied meaning of the phrase wouldn't make any sense to Christians of 200-300 AD.
Read the letters of Ignatius of Antioch, besides using the term Catholic, he mentions a hierarchy that is very much like Catholicism in the early 2nd century. The Didache, another ancient writing from early Christianity is some sort of Catechism for the Church with instructions for baptism and the Eucharist.

Lastly, the concept of the Church built by Christ on the shoulders of Peter was a well known concept in the second century. This is evident in many writings from that era. When Constantine converted the first thing he did was to provide funds to the Church so they could build Saint Peters in Rome over the tomb of Peter. This was no coincidence, with his conversion he was made aware of the Petrine supremacy.

Constantine also ordered 50 copies of the Bible in Codex form rather than in scrolls. The early copies of the NT were in scrolls which was not practical at all. The codex which is in book form was a Roman invention. You may still find the Codex Vaticanus in the vaults of the Vatican.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:15 AM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,664,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The name of Peter is mentioned much more than anyone else. When there is more than one apostle in the room Peter is always recognized first. Jesus gave the keys to Peter.
Yet, he erred and was subject to a public dressing down by the apostle Paul.

He was at most equal to James as the head of the Jerusalem church. He did not appear to have any kind of special role.
Quote:
Lastly, the Church of Christ, the original Church is Catholic.
The Bible really doesn't show that. Sorry. Your unsupported assertions don't mean it's true.
Quote:

There were no protestants in that era. I think is futile to have the same argument over and over again. The only game in early Christianity was the Catholic Church.
The church eventually grew into the Catholic church, yes. But we see even in the 1st century that error was invading the church.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:34 AM
 
9,898 posts, read 6,765,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Yet, he erred and was subject to a public dressing down by the apostle Paul.

He was at most equal to James as the head of the Jerusalem church. He did not appear to have any kind of special role.
I am not making this up Vizio. The name of Peter appears 156 times in the NT KJB and 184 times in NIV. No other disciple comes close.


Quote:
The church eventually grew into the Catholic church, yes. But we see even in the 1st century that error was invading the church.
Who are you to say error? They successfully propagated Christianity to the World.
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