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Old 10-24-2013, 01:22 PM
 
535 posts, read 797,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Then by that reasoning, why do you not apply it to this when Jesus said to Peter:
Matthew 16:23
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
So what Jesus was going to build his church on in Matthew 16:18 was not Peter himself ... but on "the rock" whom Peter confessed about.
Unfortunately, some are obsessed with trying to prove "We're the first and therefore the best church because Jesus started it all with us and Peter." They then progress onto ridiculous, easily disproven statements such as, "We gave you the Bible." The true sequence of historically verifiable events and spiritual events are vastly different. God isn't putting a check mark in some "Which church are they going to" box. His concern is that the chosen hear and respond. Those locked into human reason and my church is THE CHURCH are likely not chosen anyway. God foreordains those who will truly hear His voice and respond and those who will blindly follow man's trappings. Does that mean we are not to evangelize the lost? No, because we humans don't know who will respond. We need to be broken before we can be fixed. Does that mean, even within cults there are saved people? I believe so. I've read the accounts of many who followed David Koresh. Many of the relatives of those who died said they were born again believers. Tragically though they were led by the Waco wacko. Some churches today are just two steps behind, elevating man to near God or Jesus status. When a church or a man becomes the focal point of your belief system, it's time to reassess and ask the tough questions. Am I growing spiritually? Are there serious church issues I'm asked or have chosen to ignore? Am I questioning the very things I'm defending? Am I 100% certain if I were to die within the next minute I'd go to heaven? All people like Pastor Vizio, myself, and many others want, is not that everyone become Protestant, but that everyone responds to His call.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:58 PM
 
9,878 posts, read 6,752,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
Unfortunately, some are obsessed with trying to prove "We're the first and therefore the best church because Jesus started it all with us and Peter."
Ultimately ALL Christians are catholic. However, history is history.

The concept of Peter being the first leader of the church is not knew. This was widely known by the most prominent second century Christians.

Tertullian said: "For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him"


Clement of Alexandria said:

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church,





Quote:
They then progress onto ridiculous, easily disproven statements such as, "We gave you the Bible." The true sequence of historically verifiable events and spiritual events are vastly different.
The Bible was given to us by the Jews, however the Church preserved the Bible and Christianity for the world.

Quote:
God isn't putting a check mark in some "Which church are they going to" box. His concern is that the chosen hear and respond. Those locked into human reason and my church is THE CHURCH are likely not chosen anyway.
Exactly, ALL Christians belong to the Church are are saved!


Quote:
When a church or a man becomes the focal point of your belief system, it's time to reassess and ask the tough questions.
Strawman, but the point is valid.

Quote:
Am I growing spiritually? Are there serious church issues I'm asked or have chosen to ignore? Am I questioning the very things I'm defending? Am I 100% certain if I were to die within the next minute I'd go to heaven? All people like Pastor Vizio, myself, and many others want, is not that everyone become Protestant, but that everyone responds to His call.
As always it ultimately becomes "my church is better than yours", or "you are doing things that are not biblical" or "you pray to the virgin", or "Joseph Smith", etc.

Really? Who cares! God is not petty or anal.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:22 PM
 
535 posts, read 797,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Lastly, the Church of Christ, the original Church is Catholic. The only game in early Christianity was the Catholic Church.
You keep saying that but provide, as usual, absolutely no proof. Show it.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:31 PM
 
9,878 posts, read 6,752,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
You keep saying that but provide, as usual, absolutely no proof. Show it.
Do you read my posts?

Jesus gave Peter the keys.

Second century Christians believed in this concept.

The first thing Constantine did was to build Saint Peters over the tomb of Peter.

However, you do not have to believe this. I get it!
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:23 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,180,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post

As always it ultimately becomes "my church is better than yours", or "you are doing things that are not biblical" or "you pray to the virgin", or "Joseph Smith", etc.

Really? Who cares! God is not petty or anal.
Which shows just who is off base and why we are not.

God cares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Do you read my posts?

Jesus gave Peter the keys.

Second century Christians believed in this concept.

The first thing Constantine did was to build Saint Peters over the tomb of Peter.

However, you do not have to believe this. I get it!
Jesus did not solely give the keys to Peter, he gave it to all believers.

The idea that Jesus gave the keys to Peter (and subsequent to any of his successors) is the convenient positioning of the RCC between God and believer.
Jesus gave the keys in two ways:
  • Publicly, by the pastor, other leaders, and the assembly of the church.
  • Privately, by individual Christians. James 5:15-16
In fact, that was one of the articles that addressed such an error by the RCC at the Augsburg Confession of 1530.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:50 PM
 
9,878 posts, read 6,752,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post


Jesus did not solely give the keys to Peter, he gave it to all believers.
I agree, the keys are for all Christians. I have said at nauseam that all Christians belong to the Catholic Church, that is not an issue.

Quote:
The idea that Jesus gave the keys to Peter (and subsequent to any of his successors) is the convenient positioning of the RCC between God and believer.
Jesus gave the keys in two ways:
  • Publicly, by the pastor, other leaders, and the assembly of the church.
  • Privately, by individual Christians. James 5:15-16
In fact, that was one of the articles that addressed such an error by the RCC at the Augsburg Confession of 1530.
This is all about symbolism and being there at the onset of Christianity, that is all. And this was not a convenient recent position. This was the way it was in early Christianity. And this is based on the NT despite all the wishy washy obfuscation of saying that Jesus was talking to a rock.

Quote:
Matthew 16:13-19
New International Version (NIV)
Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

[b]17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”
Read the passage in context. There are no rocks or stones involved here.



BTW, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to the Church which guides the Church to this day. That is why the church has authority.

Quote:
John 14:23-28
New International Version (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
But, as I said ALL Christians are a part of this and you are a catholic as long as you believe in Jesus.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Midwest
128 posts, read 191,583 times
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In the Orthodox Church, Scripture is a part of sacred tradition. Period. You can't have one without the other. Tradition actually existed before the New Testament.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:06 PM
 
9,878 posts, read 6,752,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie24 View Post
In the Orthodox Church, Scripture is a part of sacred tradition. Period. You can't have one without the other. Tradition actually existed before the New Testament.
Exactly! It is the whole package plus the Holy Spirit guiding the Church.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:10 PM
 
535 posts, read 797,004 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Do you read my posts?

Jesus gave Peter the keys.

Second century Christians believed in this concept.

The first thing Constantine did was to build Saint Peters over the tomb of Peter.

However, you do not have to believe this. I get it!
This means nothing. I want you to show me the evidence that the RCC was the first Christian Church.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:32 PM
 
535 posts, read 797,004 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie24 View Post
In the Orthodox Church, Scripture is a part of sacred tradition. Period. You can't have one without the other. Tradition actually existed before the New Testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Exactly! It is the whole package plus the Holy Spirit guiding the Church.
Julian, are you saying you accept Orthodox Sacred Tradition views?
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