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Old 10-22-2013, 08:24 PM
 
535 posts, read 796,753 times
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Some say Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God and are equal.

Some say the task of interpreting Sacred Scripture authentically can only be accomplished via The Magesterium.

Some quote 2Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Some say Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture must not contradict one another.

Others say Sacred Scriptures stand alone.

Others say Sacred Scriptures are illuminated by the Holy Spirit who gives each understanding.

Others quote Matt 15:3-6 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? “For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.’ “But you say, ‘Whoever ... he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Others say Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: contradicts Augustine in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13)

Jesus said, And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? Matt 15:3.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:46 PM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
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Using the Bible to prove the Bible is not a good idea in an academic debate.

From the record we know Jesus wrote nothing.


The books of the NT were not written during the life of Jesus on Earth. The books and gospels were written many years later from guess what? Word of Mouth (Sacred Tradition).

It is impossible to describe Jesus in such a small collection books. There is much more to Jesus than the NT.

The original manuscripts were handwritten and hand copied. There was no printing press. Editing and errors are very likely. If Paul wrote a letter and this reached another church it was probably copied by a slave scribe to be sent to another church or to be saved.

Many of the books are anonymous or have pseudonymous. The latter is particularly true of the Gospels.

The Canon of the NT was finalized in several councils between the 4th and 6th centuries. Before this there was a fully operational church with a hierarchy and traditions of worship such as the Eucharist.


In the end the CC selected books that were from the Apostolic era. If they were from that era they were quite close to the time Jesus lived and therefore were deemed worthy of inclusion into the canon of the NT. Some Protestants would lead you to believe that the books wrote themselves and organized themselves into the NT in the first century, but that is not true.

As for the CC the authority also includes the Church because it was founded by Jesus and therefore the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. In Catholicism, the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. Here is where the CC is accused of Sola Iglesia.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:44 PM
 
Location: california
5,666 posts, read 4,889,400 times
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Which is it /whom is it , you worship ?
worshipping the church is not worshipping God,
neither is worshipping the scriptures worshipping God.
Nor is one's inflated intellect filled with religious trivia, worshipping God.
Decide which it is that is most important to you , but just like Jesus said you cannot serve two masters.
Attempting to split mastery in your life is that is a traitor/double agent.
Sin is self government, righteousness is God's government .the Holy Spirit is the one Jesus designated to teach God's government. He said so .
And told the disciples NOT to be called teacher or master or father.
The disciples commission is much like the news boy selling papers , one must make the investment of their own discovery of Jesus by those sharing His provision, to acquire the knowledge available from Jesus provision, the "Holy Spirit" God's person to God to person instruction conduit . In other words ,
A person is vacant in the knowledge of God , I share that Jesus made it possible that God would wish to reveal himself in a personal way to him if he would really love God, given the opportunity.
What stands in the way, is self government /rebellion/sin, which insulates God from involvement. The dos and don'ts are the old testament method but it was lacking personal interaction like God had with the few prophets .
Introduction Jesus makes to the Holy Spirit in a person's life changes every thing. No longer is a priest the go between hence the vale of the temple was torn top to bottom when Jesus died on the cross .
That priest hood came to an end.
Jesus said you have one master , Me
The Holy Spirit teaches in my place, those things I taught. and will guide you in the Father's will.
Asking Jesus Christ forgiveness for rebellion, and demonstrating repentance by becoming desperate for His instruction in your life, in this is His Lordship realized . and not in the traditions of men .
Few seek His Lordship, most only want a fire extinguisher, not really in love with God, seeking excuses in scriptures rather than direction on their knees .
Which is it, you are looking for?
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:31 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,643,840 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Using the Bible to prove the Bible is not a good idea in an academic debate.

From the record we know Jesus wrote nothing.


The books of the NT were not written during the life of Jesus on Earth. The books and gospels were written many years later from guess what? Word of Mouth (Sacred Tradition).

It is impossible to describe Jesus in such a small collection books. There is much more to Jesus than the NT.

The original manuscripts were handwritten and hand copied. There was no printing press. Editing and errors are very likely. If Paul wrote a letter and this reached another church it was probably copied by a slave scribe to be sent to another church or to be saved.

Many of the books are anonymous or have pseudonymous. The latter is particularly true of the Gospels.

The Canon of the NT was finalized in several councils between the 4th and 6th centuries. Before this there was a fully operational church with a hierarchy and traditions of worship such as the Eucharist.


In the end the CC selected books that were from the Apostolic era. If they were from that era they were quite close to the time Jesus lived and therefore were deemed worthy of inclusion into the canon of the NT. Some Protestants would lead you to believe that the books wrote themselves and organized themselves into the NT in the first century, but that is not true.

As for the CC the authority also includes the Church because it was founded by Jesus and therefore the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. In Catholicism, the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. Here is where the CC is accused of Sola Iglesia.

What reason do we have to believe Catholicism over any other of a number of religions that claim special revelation or special teaching that is equal to or above scripture?
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:26 AM
 
535 posts, read 796,753 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Using the Bible to prove the Bible is not a good idea in an academic debate.

From the record we know Jesus wrote nothing.


The books of the NT were not written during the life of Jesus on Earth. The books and gospels were written many years later from guess what? Word of Mouth (Sacred Tradition).

It is impossible to describe Jesus in such a small collection books. There is much more to Jesus than the NT.

The original manuscripts were handwritten and hand copied. There was no printing press. Editing and errors are very likely. If Paul wrote a letter and this reached another church it was probably copied by a slave scribe to be sent to another church or to be saved.

Many of the books are anonymous or have pseudonymous. The latter is particularly true of the Gospels.

The Canon of the NT was finalized in several councils between the 4th and 6th centuries. Before this there was a fully operational church with a hierarchy and traditions of worship such as the Eucharist.


In the end the CC selected books that were from the Apostolic era. If they were from that era they were quite close to the time Jesus lived and therefore were deemed worthy of inclusion into the canon of the NT. Some Protestants would lead you to believe that the books wrote themselves and organized themselves into the NT in the first century, but that is not true.

As for the CC the authority also includes the Church because it was founded by Jesus and therefore the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. In Catholicism, the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. Here is where the CC is accused of Sola Iglesia.
Julian, what you neglected to comment on is at the heart of my question. The CC or RCC, Orthodox, and Anglican churches all hold that through apostolic succession Sacred Tradition is not relegated to the early church fathers, but continues to this present day.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:52 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,669,209 times
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It is not just a matter of "sacred tradition," but of the testimony of saints past and present, and no, it is not about the Magisterium or any other self=appointed body, and especially not one that gave voice and free rein to the greatest heresy yet: the idea that people who hold or espouse "heretical ideas" should be murdered. There is much of value in Christian literature, and there is much in the Bible that has been subject to perceptions of men, and the other tool of the Spirit is reason, which can also be faulty, which is why the Spirit itself must be the guide as all means of determining truth are used. The Spirit is known by its fruit.
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:18 AM
 
183 posts, read 140,516 times
Reputation: 31
Traditions of man, traditions of the church, are worthless.

If you cannot honor your earthly mother and father, how can you honor your heavenly Father?

The test is, righteous or unrighteous. The Word reveals the mind of God, not he entire mind of course, but sufficient for you to discern right from wrong.

Simplicity, but some of you chase the wind, fill your minds with trash, reject the entirety of the Word. Lacking Wisdom.
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:59 AM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
What reason do we have to believe Catholicism over any other of a number of religions that claim special revelation or special teaching that is equal to or above scripture?
Unlike other churches the CC was there at the onset, And Jesus spoke to Peter and gave him the keys,


Other churches have Sola Scriptura because they did not exist in early Christianity. These churches came into existence as a branch of Catholicism a relatively short time ago. They follow the principle of Sola Scriptura which is relatively new.

The CC relies on the Bible as well and considers the NT to be inspired , In fact the CC put the cannon of the NT together. However. the CHurch authority also relies on itself. The Church founded by Jesus is guided by the Holy Spirit and is as important as the NT even though many of the teachings of the church are based on the NT. So the CHurch has many ancient Christian costumes from the first three centuries that precede the canonization of the NT.

LAstly, the CC believes that there is more than just the written word in the NT. There is the issue of sacred oral tradition which in itself lead to the Apostolic writers to put it writing. Lastly, the NT was written for converted Jews. IT was a continuation of the Jew Bible.

Last edited by Julian658; 10-23-2013 at 07:00 AM..
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:07 AM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
Reputation: 2487
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdMaster View Post
Traditions of man, traditions of the church, are worthless.

If you cannot honor your earthly mother and father, how can you honor your heavenly Father?

The test is, righteous or unrighteous. The Word reveals the mind of God, not he entire mind of course, but sufficient for you to discern right from wrong.

Simplicity, but some of you chase the wind, fill your minds with trash, reject the entirety of the Word. Lacking Wisdom.
Some Protestants put tradition down, but last time I checked they had their own tradition.


There is tradition with little t and Tradition with capital T. They are different.
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:26 AM
 
183 posts, read 140,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Some Protestants put tradition down, but last time I checked they had their own tradition.


There is tradition with little t and Tradition with capital T. They are different.

I'm not protestant.
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