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Old 11-07-2013, 09:09 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,819 posts, read 2,874,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
But he did hear the gospel, he was raised in RC... so it's a mute point.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
There are many in church who never heard it. Just because they hear about Jesus does not mean they understood. I am not trying to defend hitlers actions, there is no evidence that he heard the gospel. In fact, much of his hatred for Jews was kindled by Martin Luther's hatred of the Jews. Luther was lifted up as a great man by hitlers writings. Luther's book " on the Jews and their secrets " influenced hitler. In fact, on Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) where the Nazis killed Jews, shattered glass windows, and destroyed hundreds of synagogues, just happen to fall on hitler's influential motivator to hate Jews, birthday. Whose birthday was it? Luther's. What an honor.
I really don't believe hitler heard the good news. However, neither did the majority of those who were killed under his leadership. But they will heard it.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:28 PM
 
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Every one of Hitler's sins were died for. God accepted that. It's a done deal.

Christ ransomed Hitler long before he was even born (see 1 Tim.2:4-6) and that is the reason God is going to EVENTUALLY save Hitler.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:19 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,320,343 times
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The problem with the Hitler argument is one of accountability. The folk doing the dirty work at the camps were just as guilty of crimes against humanity. Hitler never pulled a lever but ordered the mass murder.

WWII was not about the Jews at all. They were an unfortunate statistic of a nation gone nits. There were many war crimes carried out where innocent people were executed. 50M+ folk died in WWI and for what?

How many died in WWI? Did Kaiser Willem get vilified like Hitler does? What was WWI about? How many died in that war and for what?

You need to look at the bigger picture. What caused Hitler to become such a brute? How did he manage to instil such nationalism and hate for the Jews?

He has become the poster boy for everything that is evil and yet his roots were very much christian.

Hitler could claim the defence that he was the fulfilment of NT prophesy when the Jews placed a curse on themselves and their descendants, I think this was the excuse for all Jewish persecution by christians over the years yet ironic as if he never died, there would be no christianity.

I do not believe any of this happened so the argument is moot. This is why even the UR version of judgement does not make sense. How do we even know if these Jews were orthodox or Torah faithful? No human being deserves to be treated as they were yet we have had mass genocides since then w/o even a whimper from the international community. How long do the Jews expect the world to hold to some international guilt for what happened in WWII?

It is these after life conundrums that cause consternation as our gut instinct is that he should have no second chance were heaven real. Equally, someone like my late wife who did not hurt a flea and was loved by many, according to christianity mainstream, she will be waiting for me in hell along with Hitler. She was agnostic atheist but a milder version of me.
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:30 PM
 
5,140 posts, read 2,531,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Every one of Hitler's sins were died for. God accepted that. It's a done deal.
Christ ransomed Hitler long before he was even born (see 1 Tim.2:4-6) and that is the reason God is going to EVENTUALLY save Hitler.
Is Hitler part of the MANY of Matthew 20 v 28; Mark 10 v 45 that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all ? ______

How do you know Hitler did Not commit the unforgivable sin ?______Mathew 12 v 32; Hebrews 10 v 26

Sure it is God's will that people be saved. All types of people, and all sorts of people, but Not all people will be willing to do God's will over one's own will. That is why the free-will choice is given to repent or perish [ be destroyed ] at 2nd Peter 3 v 9; John 3 v 16 B.
Won't all wicked ones be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalm 92 v 7 ?______
What would be the point of that warning if all are saved ?
Surely you do Not believe Satan will be saved because doesn't Jesus destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B ?
Satan is wicked and all who make themselves as Satan's seed, so to speak, will end up destroyed like Satan.

Acts 24 v 15 mentions only two types of people resurrected: The just or righteous and the unjust or unrighteous.
There is No mention of the wicked being resurrected.

Those resurrected back to perfectly healthy life on Earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over Earth will come to an accurate knowledge of what the Bible really teaches, but those resurrected ones who choose to reject Jesus as Messianic king will Not gain everlasting life on Earth nor ever live again anywhere.
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:43 PM
 
5,140 posts, read 2,531,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedos View Post
I really don't believe hitler heard the good news. However, neither did the majority of those who were killed under his leadership. But they will heard it.
They will or could hear it, Not in heaven, but right here on planet Earth. Jesus is Messianic king of God's kingdom of a thousand years over Earth. The majority of mankind [ John 3 v 13 ] will have an opportunity because of an earthly resurrection back to healthy physical life on a paradisaic earth during Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over Earth.
- Acts 24 v 15

Only those of Revelation 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10 will be in heaven with Jesus, and they have the job of being kings and priests with Jesus for a thousand years over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's thousand-year kingdom.- Psalm 72 vs 8,12-14
As kings their duty will be to take care of governmental needs of the people living on earth.
As priests they will take care of spiritual responsibilities for the people living on earth.

What is unique for our time frame is that those judged as humble 'sheep' of Matthew 25 vs 31, 32 are alive on Earth at this coming 'time of separation' and can remain alive on Earth, and keep right on living on Earth right into the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over Earth.
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Old 11-24-2013, 02:08 AM
 
Location: In Sticky San Antonio TX
1,437 posts, read 2,555,968 times
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I really don't get this conjecture - did someone see the Book of Life and recognize Hitler's name there? Are people posing themselves as G-d, with all this hyperbole and examination of the possible? Feed the hungry, heal the sick, eh?

"What is that to you? You must follow me." That's enough for me. As for me and my house, we serve the Lord.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 908,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin Atoms View Post
I really don't get this conjecture - did someone see the Book of Life and recognize Hitler's name there? Are people posing themselves as G-d, with all this hyperbole and examination of the possible? Feed the hungry, heal the sick, eh?

"What is that to you? You must follow me." That's enough for me. As for me and my house, we serve the Lord.
I think feeding one who is poor in spirit is important in addition to feeding their body. If they understand that their loved ones who may have died cursing God, in a police shootout while committing a crime, in an unrepentant state are not being tortured by an angry God or deranged devil tha God cannot control is spreading joy and love and causes one to want to seek that sort of God. I know that I mourned over souls who I thought were either currently suffering or would soon be in unending misery. Most don't seem to want to believe in a God of real love for they seem to think if punishment isn't horrendous and endures forever that that makes God namby pamby. But do some research and learn the the words translated forever and eternal do NOT mean that in our concept and the fear and dread disappear in a flash and yes, there is a chance that some will begin doing evil things that their heart secretly wanted to do and only refrained because of fear, but for most it opens the floodgates of love when they finally realize that God has a plan that works through AGES, not one short lifetime of us mortals.

No, I believe it's very much a Christian act to wonder what happens to the wicked and be concerned and hurt in anyone's suffering, temporal or 'eternal'.
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:01 AM
 
Location: In Sticky San Antonio TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
No, I believe it's very much a Christian act to wonder what happens to the wicked and be concerned and hurt in anyone's suffering, temporal or 'eternal'.
But it is a philosophy, just like these boards, and it adds nothing more or less to your life. It is not an admonishment, it is not an adornment, and it takes away from doing. We should think of these things but ponder with a certain person in mind? No, we should think of these things to stay away from poor choices, not to be concerned about someone's redemption or perdition. How does this affect me? Who the person is before G-d stands and falls before G-d. This is like soap on the hands after 30 seconds - it does nothing more for cleansing, but should be simply washed down the drain. Any other ideas is like returning to vomit. For what? At what cost and to what benefit?
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 908,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin Atoms View Post
But it is a philosophy, just like these boards, and it adds nothing more or less to your life. It is not an admonishment, it is not an adornment, and it takes away from doing. We should think of these things but ponder with a certain person in mind? No, we should think of these things to stay away from poor choices, not to be concerned about someone's redemption or perdition. How does this affect me? Who the person is before G-d stands and falls before G-d. This is like soap on the hands after 30 seconds - it does nothing more for cleansing, but should be simply washed down the drain. Any other ideas is like returning to vomit. For what? At what cost and to what benefit?
I'm sorry, but it adds a GREAT deal to my life not to have to wonder how you love a God who would abandon any poor wretched souls (which we all were at one time) born into this world without being asked if we wanted to go through this. Not everyone thinks the way YOU do, or I do. You really should not dismiss someone for thinking or acting or believing differently than you do when you don't know HOW they came to be what they are. I am using 'you' generically to include anyone reading this, not anyone in particular. till I walk a mile in someone's shoes, including yours, I can't know their pain, joys, etc. I'm sorry, I am in secure in my Father's love for myself, I am not perfect but I will be when He's finished creating me. If I can lighten the load, especially spiritually, of a sister or brother, that brings me great joy.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:47 PM
 
Location: In Sticky San Antonio TX
1,437 posts, read 2,555,968 times
Reputation: 1740
We can be caught up in wondering about the grace of G-d without experiencing the grace ourselves. We must run a race without being counted out or disqualified. There is much more about the grace of G-d than figuring how it works in someone's life. Make grace work in yours, and you can be a testimony about the same. This doesn't diminish another's walk as much as it focuses on how G-d can infuse our walk. To examine, review, wonder about another, even about Jesus (dare I say it) takes away from what the Holy Spirit needs to do in me. If I am quiet, I will hear G-d's voice. This is the difference between bible-ism and true spirituality. Rules and guidelines or spirit? It is an awesome freedom that few desire to commit to, for fear they can be wrong. We have the yes and the amen in G-d.

The admonishment 'love you neighbor' was based on how a person tends to themselves. This isn't self-adoration as much as it is maintaining well-being. But it is not focused on how the grace of G-d works in your neighbor, if they are worthy, etc. It is the grace in you from G-d that will be a balm to another. If I know how it works in me, that is enough. I can then be an instrument and offer freely, without reservations, and as though I was a fount myself.

There is no critique, no diminishing another in walking in grace. I can't say I have attained it yet nor can I support my perfection. But my walk is affirmed with my eyes on Jesus. This isn't a prosperity gospel, it is managing G-d through the vessel G-d uses, which is myself. This is why Peter fell in the water when he was called out to join Jesus walking on the waves - his eyes weren't on G-d. What is that to you; you follow me? As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Finally, a faith walk is action. I do not diminish the philosophical position you are taking; it is not a place in which one should feel comfort however. Faith requires engagement in crisis. The cross of Christ introduces crisis to a sin-sick world. It is turning the method of sin upside down and suggests a different way, quite contrary to the world. Mentoring and discipling are what comes next. Trust the words that G-d puts in your mouth. Even as John said he had so much more to say, but he didn't want to put it on paper with pen; please don't take my words as a critique for your experience. As Paul said to the Corinthians, I will show you another way, after he spoke about all other gifts. There is merely an admonishment to do less with self, even mind, and more with G-d, who is true Spirit.

Altogether ScarletWren, I apologize if you have taken offense - this is more about a better way, and an encouragement to walk by faith, not by sight.
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