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Old 10-24-2013, 09:13 AM
 
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I've been studying a variety of websites, theologies, debates, etc and the the one overriding truth I have come away with from all that is this:

Don't expect God to be any less than the very best you can imagine Him to be.

What is the very best you could expect from a God who created the universe and everything in it:

to torture 97% of His children in eternal flames simply because they didn't have the good sense to accept His Son while here in this very short lifetime of pain and misery when getting bills paid took precedence over cracking a Bible

or

to have the ability and Will to be able to save every last child who ever lived by drawing them to Him either in this life or in the next.

You parents. What is the very best your children expect of you: to feed them, clothe them, take care of them until they are 18 and then to immediately throw them out of the house ill-prepared to face the cruel world we live in and totally cut off your love of them, even hate them if they so much as choose a profession you might not agree with, or love them unconditionally and do everything you can to help them be the very best they can be no matter how may times they transgress against you.

If they can expect no less from you as parents, then where do we get this ridiculous notion that

God is a God of love. BUT! He is also a God of justice. Sin is a transgression against an infinite and holy God so the consequences of sin must be infinite because God is infinite! If the consequences of sin are infinite then eternal torment in hell must be infinite. ???????????????

Have you ever heard such cockeyed ridiculously insane logic in your life? Not from the Bible you haven't.

That statement is plastered word-for-word on 10,000 different Fundamentalist Christian websites all over the Internet by Christians with hate permeating every fiber of their being. It is NOT from the Bible. Nowhere will you find such a statement. It was cobbled together by a corrupt church leader called "Saint" Anselm in the 12th century cherry-picking bits of Biblical scripture so he could assemble them into what he personally believed was the truth contained in the Holy Scriptures. It has become the mantra of every Fundamentalist church leader since.

Why?

Because it scares foolish gullible Christians into keeping them in power and giving money to them in order to keep you out of hell.

The facts speak for themselves: Every man in powerful positions within the church hierarchy spout this doctrine for that exact same reason.

Not because it is the truth. It isn't.

Not because they are concerned about your salvation. They aren't.

Their sole interest is maintaining their position, their power, their wealth and their privilege---and their women, in some cases by keeping you in fear to control you. It's been that way for the last 1800 hundred years.

Think of God as being the very best you could imagine Him to be because He is.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Florida -
8,767 posts, read 10,848,423 times
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Thank God, He has not chosen to reveal Himself to mankind through 'human imagination' (or through a variety of web sites, theological debates, etc.). If He had, we would likely all be Hindus or those ... who believe they can have almost as many different 'gods and deities' as they can possibly imagine. (They also have as many versions of 'truth' as they can likewise imagine, similar to those today who have foolishly concluded that "truth" is relative, rather than absolute!).

Instead, the Living God, has chosen to reveal Himself to mankind through His Word of Truth; through His Son Jesus Christ, and through His indwelling Holy Spirit. As a result, all have the ability to know and have a personal relationship with the one true God. --- Praise be to God!
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:47 PM
 
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It's not up to me to decide what God should or should not do or what He should be. He is what He is. Trying to reduce God to human terms or expecting Him to meet my expectations is absurd. He created us, not the other way around. Our job is to worship him, not to question Him. Being warned of the consequences of sin is not fear and hate mongering. It's a complete 180 degrees from that. Telling people what the Bible says we must do to get to heaven is love in action. So is telling them the consequences. If I didn't love someone why would I bother telling them? If people don't think heaven and hell are in the Bible then they need to open one and read it.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:56 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,634,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I've been studying a variety of websites, theologies, debates, etc and the the one overriding truth I have come away with from all that is this:

Don't expect God to be any less than the very best you can imagine Him to be.

What is the very best you could expect from a God who created the universe and everything in it:

to torture 97% of His children in eternal flames simply because they didn't have the good sense to accept His Son while here in this very short lifetime of pain and misery when getting bills paid took precedence over cracking a Bible
That isn't God. He doesn't punish anyone simply for failing to believe in Jesus. They are punished because of their willful rebellion and sinning against him.

Quote:


or

to have the ability and Will to be able to save every last child who ever lived by drawing them to Him either in this life or in the next.
Why would you want to worship a god that rewards the Adolph Hitlers of the world with heaven?
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:19 PM
 
Location: New England
32,233 posts, read 21,115,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
That isn't God. He doesn't punish anyone simply for failing to believe in Jesus. They are punished because of their willful rebellion and sinning against him.


Why would you want to worship a god that rewards the Adolph Hitlers of the world with heaven?
Can you honestly say you willfully rebelled and sinned against God, a God you never knew and never believed in ?.
Paul called himself the chief of sinners, so he would never condemn the Hitlers of the world.

I believe God is above and beyond what we can ever think to be, unfortunately we cannot comprehend such a thing because the gospel we have believed in, is about how awful sin is, rather than how wonderful God is.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:05 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,634,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Can you honestly say you willfully rebelled and sinned against God, a God you never knew and never believed in ?.
Paul called himself the chief of sinners, so he would never condemn the Hitlers of the world.
Yes. In thought and deed. I know what God commanded, and I chose to disobey.
Quote:
I believe God is above and beyond what we can ever think to be, unfortunately we cannot comprehend such a thing because the gospel we have believed in, is about how awful sin is, rather than how wonderful God is.
God has told us what he requires -- to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with him. None of us can do that completely. None of us can obey perfectly.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:28 PM
 
11,256 posts, read 11,270,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
That isn't God. He doesn't punish anyone simply for failing to believe in Jesus. They are punished because of their willful rebellion and sinning against him.
Now. Vizio, you are saying the exact opposite of what Mike says, if i understand him. Mike says Jesus paid the penalty for every last sin ever committed. The ONLY sin man becomes guilty of is failing to believe in Jesus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Why would you want to worship a god that rewards the Adolph Hitlers of the world with heaven?
I don't believe Hitler gets into heaven immediately. I believe there is a hell and evil people get sent their to be salted with fire till they have come to the realization of their evil ways and turn and beg forgiveness and change their natures. I believe the love of God transcends every evil man can devise and that He finds a way to bring every last sheep into the fold. God is not an elitist exclusivist who's chosen only a few people to enter heaven and doomed 97% of the others to hell the way corrupt church leaders love to paint Him for their own glory and benefit, not ours.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:43 PM
 
Location: New England
32,233 posts, read 21,115,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Yes. In thought and deed. I know what God commanded, and I chose to disobey.


God has told us what he requires -- to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with him. None of us can do that completely. None of us can obey perfectly.
So you knew what God commanded as an unbeliever?.

I personally was in complete darkness to the things of God as an unbeliever and and had no idea that I was loved by him and that he desired for me to know the Way of Life, that I could walk in it.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:02 PM
 
535 posts, read 796,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Now. Vizio, you are saying the exact opposite of what Mike says, if i understand him. Mike says Jesus paid the penalty for every last sin ever committed. The ONLY sin man becomes guilty of is failing to believe in Jesus.
Please provide the thread and post # so I can read it in context. Thanks.

Quote:
I don't believe Hitler gets into heaven immediately. I believe there is a hell and evil people get sent their to be salted with fire till they have come to the realization of their evil ways and turn and beg forgiveness and change their natures. I believe the love of God transcends every evil man can devise and that He finds a way to bring every last sheep into the fold. God is not an elitist exclusivist who's chosen only a few people to enter heaven and doomed 97% of the others to hell the way corrupt church leaders love to paint Him for their own glory and benefit, not ours.
What are you basing your belief(s) on?
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:08 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,609,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Why would you want to worship a god that rewards the Adolph Hitlers of the world with heaven?
Salvation is not a reward. It's a transformation by God of man's heart to God's heart. You might ask a similar question about Saul... Why would you worship a God who transforms the Sauls of the world into Pauls of the world?
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