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Old 11-11-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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[quote=ancient warrior;32183668]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I never said God authored the scriptures. I'm in full agreement with Nateswift.

What I've said over and over is that men, MEN, who were drawn to recount the oral traditions that came down from prior years, are who recounted their personal experiences as did Paul, wrote about God. I do believe that God inspired them to try to share their stories, because a change in the heart is something that needs to be shared. Did they sometimes get it wrong? Of course!!! So do I, so does every other Christian on this thread. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be shared.

RESPONSE:

Sorry. Common sense dictates that "inspiration" is incompatible with error.
Faith and common sense are frequently incompatible. That's why they call it faith--and FAITH IS common sense to those who have experienced it.

You seem set on remaining in a world without hope, and when you experience joy being satisfied with having no one to whom to be thankful.

Good luck with that.
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Wardendresden;32186376]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post

Faith and common sense are frequently incompatible. That's why they call it faith--and FAITH IS common sense to those who have experienced it.

You seem set on remaining in a world without hope, and when you experience joy being satisfied with having no one to whom to be thankful.

Good luck with that.
RESPONSE:

Some of us remain reality oriented.

1. The belief that something is true, in spite of evidence to the contrary.
2. The proposition that something is true, even if there is no evidence to support it.
3. The idea that something can be made true, merely by wishing it to be so.
~ Harald Illig

And, in a nutshell:

"Faith is something you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe." ~ Archie Bunker

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-11-2013 at 05:49 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 11-11-2013, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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[quote=ancient warrior;32189651]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post

RESPONSE:

"Faith is something you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe." ~ Archie Bunker
EXACTLY--it's beyond anyone's "right mind", but part of their "right" spirit.
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Old 11-11-2013, 07:46 PM
 
91 posts, read 80,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
Since Christmas is approaching, we will be hearing the nativity accounts in Matthew's and Luke's which do not appear elsewhere.

But some questions arise immediately. Is this an historical event or only a story?

Matthew 2 claims that Jesus was born during the life time of King Herod who died about 4 B.C.

Luke 2 claims that Jesus was born during the census of Judea conducted by the Roman governor of Syria, Quirinius (when Herod's son and inheritor Archelaus was exiled) in 6 AD (see Josephus, Antiquities).

Because there is a ten year difference, at least one of these accounts isn't historical.

Which is it? How can we tell?

Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, published a book in 1915 titled "Jesus the Christ," in which he wrote, "We believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, April 6, B.C. 1."
Elder Talmage didn't just randomly make up this date. He took it from Section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants — a collection of revelations mostly through the Mormon founding prophet, Joseph Smith Jr. Since his book, Mormons — from church leaders to children — have accepted April 6 as the real date of Jesus' birth. But not every member of the LDS Church agreed with Elder Talmage's interpretation of Doctrine and Covenants 20.
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Wardendresden;32190603]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post

EXACTLY--it's beyond anyone's "right mind", but part of their "right" spirit.
RESPONSE:

So are you saying that "Faith" is mindless?

Then why did God create rational beings?
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danite View Post
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, published a book in 1915 titled "Jesus the Christ," in which he wrote, "We believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, April 6, B.C. 1."
Elder Talmage didn't just randomly make up this date. He took it from Section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants — a collection of revelations mostly through the Mormon founding prophet, Joseph Smith Jr. Since his book, Mormons — from church leaders to children — have accepted April 6 as the real date of Jesus' birth. But not every member of the LDS Church agreed with Elder Talmage's interpretation of Doctrine and Covenants 20.
RESPONSE:

>>a collection of revelations mostly through the Mormon founding prophet, Joseph Smith Jr<<

Using writings that are erroneous to prove the validity of other writings obviously doesn't make any sense.
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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[quote=ancient warrior;32194430]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post

RESPONSE:

So are you saying that "Faith" is mindless?

Then why did God create rational beings?
That is not what I said, THAT is what you may believe--or at least want to believe. Faith in God is BEYOND the lowliness of rationality---and God may have created us as rational, but His expectation is that we live in a fashion not considered rational by rational people.

The word games you play, make you a Fundamentalist without the belief in God. It's simply amazing how just like them you really are while all the time trying to "disprove" God to yourself. Shouldn't you be posting on the agnostic thread?

We're all delusional over here!
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Wardendresden;32206634]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post

That is not what I said, THAT is what you may believe--or at least want to believe. Faith in God is BEYOND the lowliness of rationality---and God may have created us as rational, but His expectation is that we live in a fashion not considered rational by rational people.

The word games you play, make you a Fundamentalist without the belief in God. It's simply amazing how just like them you really are while all the time trying to "disprove" God to yourself. Shouldn't you be posting on the agnostic thread?

We're all delusional over here!
RESPONSE:

I know of at least one person who is not.[]

(I'm not "disproving" God to myself. Only your erroneous characterization of Him).

>>Faith in God is BEYOND the lowliness of rationality<<.

So is belief in Santa Claus. I prefer reality.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-14-2013 at 11:37 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Default Faith requires courage

[quote=ancient warrior;32229232]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post

RESPONSE:

I know of at least one person who is not.[]

(I'm not "disproving" God to myself. Only your erroneous characterization of Him).

>>Faith in God is BEYOND the lowliness of rationality<<.

So is belief in Santa Claus. I prefer reality.
From the earliest beginnings of Christianity you have had plenty in your camp. Paul wrote in I Corinthians (a letter of which he IS the author)--

Cor 1:18-25 Living Bible
"I know very well how foolish it sounds to those who are lost, when they hear that Jesus died to save them. But we who are saved recognize this message as the very power of God. For God says, "I will destroy all human plans of salvation no matter how wise they seem to be, and ignore the best ideas of men, even the most brilliant of them.

So what about these wise men, these scholars, these brilliant debaters of this world's great affairs? God has made them all look foolish, and shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. For God in His wisdom saw to it that the world would never find God through human brilliance, and then He stepped in and saved all those who believed His message, which the world calls foolish and silly. It seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven as proof that what is preached is true; and it is foolish to the Gentiles because they believe only what agrees with their philosophy and seems wise to them. So when we preach about about Christ dying to save them, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it is all nonsense.

But God has opened the eyes of those called to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, to see that Christ is the mighty power of God to save them; Christ Himself is the center of God's wise plan for their salvation. This so called "foolish" plan of God is far wiser than the wisest plan of the wisest man, and God in His weakness--Christ dying on the cross--- is far stronger than any man."

vs. 27-29
"Instead, God has deliberately chosen to use ideas the world considers foolish and of little worth in order to shame those people considered by the world as wise and great. He has chosen a plan despised by the world, counted as nothing at all, and used it to bring down to nothing those the world considers great, so that no one anywhere can ever brag in the presence of God."
----------------

So your view is quite historical and goes back at least 2000 years. Christianity have faced those of your persuasion for centuries without folding to the foolishness of men.

There is no two ways about it. Faith requires courage. Some have it, some don't.

A P.S. way after the original post. What does it mean about your rationality that you choose to spend your time in discussion forums with people that you consider irrational?

I think your mind is committed to rationalism, but your heart is still speaking to you and drawing you back again and again.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 11-14-2013 at 02:24 PM.. Reason: added postscript
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Old 11-14-2013, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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>>There is no two ways about it. Faith requires courage. Some have it, some don't.<<

RESPONSE:

But first it requires gullibility - the willingness to believe things for which there is no evidence or actually contrary to the evidence.

I use the nativity narratives of Matthew and Luke as a good example. But, in fact, only the chapter 2 of each is sufficient.

As summarized by Wikipedia:

Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1886, however, the theologian Emil Schürer, in his monumental study, Geschichte des judischen Volks im Zeitalter Jesu Christi (A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ), closely criticised the traditional view. He raised five points which showed, he believed, that the Luke account could not be historically accurate: (1) nothing is known in history of a general census by Augustus; (2) in a Roman census Joseph would not have had to travel to Bethlehem, and Mary would not have had to travel at all; (3) no Roman census would have been made in Judea during the reign of Herod; (4) Josephus records no such census, and it would have been a notable innovation; (5) Quirinius was not governor of Syria until long after the reign of Herod.[31] The suggested alternative translations have been described as "implausible" [32] and "almost impossible".[33]

Willingness to believe things contrary to all the evidence does not require "courage." It requires abdication of reason. God does not require that, does he? But some remain afraid of going to hell if they insist on believing the facts of history, rather than the folklore.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-14-2013 at 02:31 PM.. Reason: typo
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