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Old 11-14-2013, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

But first it requires gullibility - the willingness to believe things for which there is no evidence or actually contrary to the evidence.

Willingness to believe things contrary to all the evidence does not require "courage." It requires abdication of reason. God does not require that, does he? But some remain afraid of going to hell if they insist on believing the facts of history, rather than the folklore.
Go back and read my last post again---that's exactly what God desires---for us to step out of reason and into faith.

As I've pointed out before, some folklore is useful to stir our hearts and point us to things beyond ourselves. My experience with God places me in a position of being concerned about following Him and being a faithful witness--not be worried about hell, or the rapture, or any of those other futuristic things many who name the name of Christ are into. I pretty much echo all you say about contradictions and discrepancies in the scriptures--because the people who wrote them were just like me--they had a story to tell and they wanted to tell in convincingly to many people.

It becomes foolishness to those that do not want to believe. It becomes a way of life for those who do believe.

Now, are we loaded up with a lot of "Christians" who prefer to pronounce judgement on others rather than live their lives as witness to the Living God?--I can agree with that too. That's why the way is so very narrow, that few who claim the name of Christ will ever find it.

You on the other hand, would make a very fine Christian should you ever decide to do away with your "rational self" and trust your heart. Because only if one can see God in spite of the flawed artifacts of the faith, will anyone really, truly have faith.

Keep searching--people who search frequently find!
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Wardendresden;32232861]Go back and read my last post again---that's exactly what God desires---for us to step out of reason and into faith.

RESPONSE:

Of course not. Why would God have given us reason in the first place if He didn't expect us to use it!.

Summarizing Paul "Test everything...Put away the things of a child."
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,667,149 times
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[quote=ancient warrior;32238912]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Go back and read my last post again---that's exactly what God desires---for us to step out of reason and into faith.

RESPONSE:

Of course not. Why would God have given us reason in the first place if He didn't expect us to use it!.

Summarizing Paul "Test everything...Put away the things of a child."
And the point is that reason can only take us so far. Being UNreasonable is not a requirement and when the leap of faith is taken reason will support it. but it is non-rational perceptions that start it.
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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[quote=ancient warrior;32238912]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Go back and read my last post again---that's exactly what God desires---for us to step out of reason and into faith.

RESPONSE:

Of course not. Why would God have given us reason in the first place if He didn't expect us to use it!.

Summarizing Paul "Test everything...Put away the things of a child."
Nate hit the nail on the head. But you, Ancient, have yet to understand I Corinthians 1:27-29

"Instead, God has deliberately chosen to use ideas the world considers foolish and of little worth in order to shame those people considered by the world as wise and great. He has chosen a plan despised by the world, counted as nothing at all, and used it to bring down to nothing those the world considers great, so that no one anywhere can ever brag in the presence of God."

And that was Paul speaking, too! So your paraphrased verse must be read in conjunction with Paul's other known writings, of which I Corinthians is one which is undisputed by scholars.

Peace.
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:19 AM
 
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I at least get the impression that it is taken on board that the nativity narratives do not work as history. If one wants to regard them as charming stories and some sort of inspiration, fine.

But then those who teach, recite and repeat them should add the rider that this is a religious myth, not history. Those who try to argue that there was some sort of unknown secret census carried out under Herod, or that there is evidence that Joseph really did have to travel to his 'own city' to register for a tax that didn't apply to him, or that the wooden box in Bethlehem is any kind of genuine relic let alone those who try to work out just what kind of astronomical phenomenon was that absurd Star in Matthew, should be told to stop peddling myth as fact.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I at least get the impression that it is taken on board that the nativity narratives do not work as history. If one wants to regard them as charming stories and some sort of inspiration, fine.

But then those who teach, recite and repeat them should add the rider that this is a religious myth, not history. Those who try to argue that there was some sort of unknown secret census carried out under Herod, or that there is evidence that Joseph really did have to travel to his 'own city' to register for a tax that didn't apply to him, or that the wooden box in Bethlehem is any kind of genuine relic let alone those who try to work out just what kind of astronomical phenomenon was that absurd Star in Matthew, should be told to stop peddling myth as fact.
RESPONSE:

Yes. That is true. But then a larger question arises.

If New Testament passages presented as history are really just stories, does this happen throughout the Bible?

For example: Immediately following Jesus' death, Matthew reports that the following occurred:

Matt 27:52-53 "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many." (NRSV)

Should this be regarded as historical (ie. It actually happened), or is it just a myth?

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-16-2013 at 07:46 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Should this be regarded as historical (ie. It actually happened), or is it just a myth?
Neither, actually. At this point it would have to be considered legend.
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:47 PM
 
39,202 posts, read 10,880,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Yes. That is true. But then a larger question arises.

If New Testament passages presented as history are really just stories, does this happen throughout the Bible?

For example: Immediately following Jesus' death, Matthew reports that the following occurred:

Matt 27:52-53 "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many." (NRSV)

Should this be regarded as historical (ie. It actually happened), or is it just a myth?
I think it significant that nobody other than Matthew reports this, just as is the case with his Bethlehem massacre. Not only because it is hard to believe that none of the other gospel -writers would have mentioned it if they had known of it but, from my own point of view, because it was not in the original common material that the writers used. Thus, Matthew added it himself - in both cases.

The reason why is because he thought, scripturally, something like that should have occurred as a sign that the last days were beginning at that time, and in the case of the massacre, using an atrocity that seemed to him suitable for Herod to do, and taking Jeremiah 31. 15 as a source or at least confirmation that a cull of children took place, this being the mechanism needed to have Joseph and family move from Bethlehem to Nazareth.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:04 PM
 
5,147 posts, read 2,536,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
For example: Immediately following Jesus' death, Matthew reports that the following occurred:
Matt 27:52-53 "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many." (NRSV)
Should this be regarded as historical (ie. It actually happened), or is it just a myth?
' bodies raised ' or ' bodies arose' which came out is Not talking about resurrection but corpses exposed.
It does Not say came to life but came out.
Such as being lifted up or coming out of the ground.- Matthew 12 v 11; 17 v 7; Luke 1 v 69
The earthquake split the earth and corpses became visible to them.
Lifeless bodies were seen out in the open.

Remember: Jesus is ' firstborn ' from the dead [ John 3 v 13; Col. 1 v 18 ]
No one was resurrected before God resurrected Jesus.

So, the 'they' of Matthew 27 v 54 are the ' living ones' who saw the exposed corpses.
They, or the living ones, are the ones who went into the city appearing to many saying Jesus was truly God's Son.
The resurrection [ 1st Thess. 4 vs 13-16; 1st Cor. 15 v 52; Rev. 20 v 6 ] was still future for those asleep in the grave.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:37 PM
 
39,202 posts, read 10,880,280 times
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Doesn't work for me. They did not lie there dead as mutton; they got up and went about in the city. This is what Matthew tells us. It was specifically the bodies of the 'saints' who were raised, not just corpses at random.

Neither does it read to me like Saints going to look at the corpses and going into the city to report that some bodies were exposed. I suppose we could scrute. the original Greek, but it seems to me that sense is the bodies waking up and walking.

Whether this is regarded as the same sort of resurrection from the dead as described regarding Jesus or indeed Lazarus, is moot, but the miraculous raising to consciousness and mobility of those who at least appeared to be good and dead is what is in Matthew, not exposed corpses.
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