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Old 10-26-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,052,183 times
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[quote=Priscilla Martin;31953753]This should get Wardendresden's attention.

Luke, Quirinius, and the Census

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

The precision with which Luke reported historical detail has been documented over and over again through the centuries by archaeologists and biblical scholars. In every instance, where sufficient archaeological evidence has surfaced, Luke has been vindicated as an accurate and meticulously precise writer. Skeptics and critics have been unable to verify even one anachronism or discrepancy with which to discredit the biblical writers’ claim of being governed by an overriding divine influence.

RESPONSE:

I'm afraid not. Let's examine a small portion of what Luke wrote in Luke 2:1-4.

In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus* that the whole world should be enrolled. 2This was the first enrollment, when Querinius was governor of Syria. 3So all went to be enrolled, each to his own town. 4And Joseph too went up from Galilee from the town of Nazareth to Judea, to the city of David that is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,..."

1. Luke's first error was claiming that there was a world wide census at this time (ie. 6 AD)

"Although universal registrations of Roman citizens are attested in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and A.D. 14 and enrollments in individual provinces of those who are not Roman citizens are also attested, such a universal census of the Roman world under Caesar Augustus is unknown outside the New Testament." (NAB)

If you have any evidence of a Roman world census in 6 AD, please present it.

2. Quirinius' census was a local census of Judea.

Josephus, Antiquities 18: 1-4 "Quirinius also visited Judea which had been annexed to Syria in order to make an assessment of the property of the Jews and to liquidate the estate of Arcxhelaus (Herod's son and inheritor after Herod's death in 4 BC).

Thus Quirinius had jurisdiction over Syria and Judea. However, Nazareth is in Galilee (not Judea) which remained under the control of Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons until about 37 AD. Thus Galileans such as Joseph and Mary were not counted in Quirinius' census. Only Judeans.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,052,183 times
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[quote=ShepherdMaster;31972153]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post



I'm not going to look it up........I don't care, frankly....but it has to do with who's calender and who's record one relies on for the exact year 0. We went over this in study and the year of Christ's birth is not the year of record, it was something like 4 years off IIRC.
RESPONSE:

We are talking about a ten year difference between Matthew's and Luke's account, not a four difference. Herod was either alive (Matthew) or was dead (Luke). Because King Herod's son had inherited his property, we know that Herod was dead. Ten year after Herod's death, his son Archelaus was exiled from Judea and the Judean census was conducted by Quirinius.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 10-26-2013 at 06:36 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Priscilla Martin;31956150]I've never looked at The Bible as a history text. Those that do are missing the point.

RESPONSE:

No. They are separating fact from fiction, truth from error. How can a divinely inspired writing contain error? If you claim it can't, then we aren't dealing with a divinely inspired (some say inerrant) writing, are we?
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Exactly!!!




This is how Fundamentalists do it. I never had that moment because i grew up Christian (Catholic) so there is no need for an Epiphany.

I fully agree with your views on the Bible. I enjoy reading your posts!
RESPONSE:

Evidently, you are speaking of Christian Fundamentalists. Other world religions, such as Islam, have their fundamentalists too, who, perhaps, have had the same experience.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Ancient, if you don't want to believe, then don't. If you need correct "history" to make you a believer then you literally don't have a prayer.

It ain't about the history. It's about the heart.
RESPONSE:

It should be about the truth, ie, historical facts, not just stories.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:53 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,106,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

It should be about the truth, ie, historical facts, not just stories.
Why do you add RESPONSE?

It is obvious what you're doing and it's superfluous.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,052,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Why do you add RESPONSE?

It is obvious what you're doing and it's superfluous.
RESPONSE:

Not really. I got the idea from St. Thomas Aquinas who wrote the Summa Theologica. He used a long form "I answer that..."

Have you any factual rebuttals about what I've posted thus far? Not just feelings, facts. I'm trying to be accurate, not popular.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:21 PM
Status: "Watching America made small." (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I think the nativity story is just another in a long line of stories establishing a back-story for that peoples' particular god(s).
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:39 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,106,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Not really. I got the idea from St. Thomas Aquinas who wrote the Summa Theologica. He used a long form "I answer that..."

Have you any factual rebuttals about what I've posted thus far? Not just feelings, facts. I'm trying to be accurate, not popular.
We're talking about faith issues here. Not many facts that can be discussed.

It's all about belief and feelings.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,325 posts, read 5,514,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

It should be about the truth, ie, historical facts, not just stories.
And that's the FUNDAMENTAL difference between Christians and fact-finders. Christians OTHER than fundamentalists, view the Bible about faith--and to Christians truth is ONLY in faith. You haven't the eyes of faith to see truth in anything but historical facts. But the FACT of faith, is that you have to jump off a spiritual cliff with the confidence that God will catch you and care for you and take you under His wing. It isn't about any fact that you can find in an encyclopedia or under a microscope, or through a telescope. You are like a color-blind man who sees only in black and white. The difficulty for Christians is to try and "explain" the reds, blues, yellows, greens, and all the shades in between. I'm not sure we can.

I absolutely agree with your ten year difference on the censuses (except they [or it] were taxations, Romans didn't waste time counting people, they preferred money). So what. If you don't want to have faith in God, you needn't spend the effort trying to "disprove" those Scriptures. Just don't believe.

The PURPOSE of the Scripture is to bring each person to a decision in their heart about the faith story that runs through it. The majority of us have made that leap of faith and are really unconcerned about what those who haven't made the leap think about our choice. I'm certainly willing to share how faith made a change in my life--but it still doesn't mean anything to you unless or until you make a similar choice.

You don't believe. Okay. No pressure here. I just don't get why you feel it necessary to push some folks buttons about something YOU don't believe in!!!??? Among those of us who believe, we have a different set of criteria because most, if not all, of us are trying to find a closer walk with God. We can learn from one another. We can encourage and in some cases chastise one another.

Now I will give you credit for starting some interesting threads---you have an ability to perk interest in those things---and this is one of them---but there is simply no reason for any of us who hold the name of Christ dear to spend our time in discussion with a non-believer.

Are the scriptures flawed--yes. Did God speak through them anyway? To me the answer is YES.
Were the historical men who followed God's commands flawed--yes. Did God speak through them anyway? To me the answer is YES, and it's exactly because God speaks through flawed sources that I find hope within my flawed self.

If you don't need it, or feel superior to it--so be it. I find deeper meanings in things that to you are foolish. I won't condemn you for your belief, because that is not what the Lord I serve asked me to do. He asked me to follow Him, to live like Him, to know that as flawed as I am, I can still serve some good purpose in a world He created with THE BIG BANG!! He asked me to live so that others, some others, can see what it is like to be in Christ, but He absolutely did not demand I convert anyone---just be an example--because if an example won't work, nothing will.

And that is what I feel is the great advantage of my "liberal" theology over fundamentalists' beliefs. Fundamentalists are so easily disturbed by "historical" challenges just because they try to view the Bible as a piece of history. In other words, they see it just like you do, and try to make all the pieces fit. It has to be perfect -- or their faith falters. I don't have to see Scripture as perfect---and it took me years and years to reach this point in my life, and my faith will not challenged by the next piece of "evidence" that comes along. For that is what true spiritual growth is all about, coming to a place where you have peace in your heart no matter what anyone else has to say---and I bring some of those Fundamentalists to task because they HAVE believed, and I believe they can have more peace and be more fruitful when they let go of the "facts" of the Bible and live in the spirit that comes from it.

I think you protest too much, and that God is indeed speaking to you, calling you to discard your facts for something that is so unknown to you, something so strange and different, that the concept is beyond your mind's comprehension. You want to be an Ancient Warrior, then take on the mantle of faith by the Ancient Father Abraham. That will make you into something you never dreamed or thought possible.

Growth in God is from the heart, to the mind, and then to the hands. It's in knowing that the Christmas Story, historical or not, is a spiritual truth about something new and different and promising for people who are willing to take that leap.

Amen, and sum perfectus

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-26-2013 at 10:46 PM..
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