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Old 10-26-2013, 10:14 AM
 
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Sounds like someone that lived on Earth 3000 years ago.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
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If you read the Bible and interpret it like any common man would without a relationship with God, then you can be assured that your understanding is not accurate. Unless you ignore the fact that the natural mind is an enemy of God, and cannot receive spiritual things. That of course is from the same Bible that you're getting all that other information from.

God is spirit...we have a spiritual relationship with Him, and His words are spirit and they are life. Yet we interpret everything in the natural - everyone knows the Lamb of God is not a barnyard animal, yet everything else is literal.

Makes absolutely no sense.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Florida -
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post

You keep twisting and turning your own convoluted theology whenever you find yourself trapped by inescapable truth. It seems that you do this in order to avoid categorically rejecting the Bible and Catholicism... yet, maintain some small degree of credibility. (?)

The CC still has Satan on the books. Now, that is very sad because one assumes the church to be better than that. IN this regard they need to come out of the Dark Ages and move to the 21st century. I have no issues in pointing out areas where the CHurch needs to change. The CC already believes in evolution and the Big Bang, so there is hope for change. At the priest level some have already made the switch and acknowledge there is no Satan.

... Since the Bible and church apparently don't meet your 'standard', - can you enlighten us all to the consistent, reliable standard by which you believe truth should be determined??? ---or do you simply make this stuff-up as you go along???

The Problem with EVIL is a theological nightmare.
If God is all mighty, omnipotent, and ALL good------- how can God allow EVIL. By definition nothing EVIL comes from God. If we have a God that does nothing to prevent evil then God is seen as imperfect. One would think that a true God which is perfection would not create evil or allow evil.

??....So, since you do not believe and trust God beyond your own logic, ...you have concluded that IF God is omnipotent and good, and IF God allows free will, - and IF that free will opposes God and produces evil, ... then God is evil???

What to do????? How can the so called theologians of the OT deal with EVIL and not affect the perfection of God. Easy! Come up with an adversary. Let another creature be in charge of EVIL and voilá this leaves God's reputation intact.

...? What "so called theologians of the OT" are you referring to? -- Do you mean the Prophets and men of God who wrote the Bible under the inspiration of God and leading of the Holy Spirit??? --- Or some other theologians of which you have some knowledge??? --- Do you NOT believe God's reputation is still intact??


However, the mere fact that God allows Satan to exist is still a problem because it diminishes God at some level.

.... God has given man free will; Satan is allowed to offer lies and deception ... as the alternative for those who refuse to love, trust and obey God ..... How does that diminish God??? (Are you suggesting that God should rescind free will and 'force' everyone to do what He wants???

Furthermore, the existence of Satan creates the "The devil made me do it" concept which is highly illogical.
.... Yet, you state below that we have free will .... or are we only 'free' to do what is right, and not evil??

IN the end EVIL is within us and a result of our own free will. Satan is nothing but the symbol of evil within us.
...? But, didn't you just conclude (above) that a righteous God would not create or allow evil???'
.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:37 AM
 
535 posts, read 795,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The CC still has Satan on the books. Now, that is very sad because one assumes the church to be better than that. IN this regard they need to come out of the Dark Ages and move to the 21st century.
I wholeheartedly disagree. For one, there is no scientific proof Satan does not exist, nor do I doubt there ever will be. Secondly, church is not to conform itself to this world (though many have and are). They are to Christ’s bride, not Stephen Hawking’s, Charles Darwin’s or a host of others.

Quote:
I have no issues in pointing out areas where the CHurch needs to change. The CC already believes in evolution
From http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time.

However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him. Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.
Quote:
and the Big Bang, so there is hope for change.

It was the Catholic priest-scientist, Fr. Georges Lemaître, who proposed what, became known as "The Big Bang Theory." Why would the church oppose what a Catholic scientist’s theory which includes God hand in it?
Quote:
At the priest level some have already made the switch and acknowledge there is no Satan.

These priests best be careful for as the following article points out





LifeSiteNews Mobile | Boston Cardinal O’Malley bans dissenting priest from diocese, orders parish to cancel talk dissenting priests are not immune from church sanction.
Quote:
The Problem with EVIL is a theological nightmare. If God is all mighty omnipotent, and ALL good------- how can God allow EVIL. By definition nothing EVIL comes from God. If we have a God that does nothing to prevent evil then God is seen as imperfect. One would think that a true God which is perfection would not create evil or allow evil.

You need to read Genesis 3 which deals with the origin of evil.
You're in good company so to speak. Einstein wrestled with the same dilemma. He believed some force (God), which he acknowledged, created everything, but questioned how this force (God) allowed evil and suffering. He never got it. God is not responsible for evil, his creatures are. God gave each of us intelligence, reason, and choice. Evil is not a created thing, a substance, an entity, a being, a force, or a floating spirit. Evil is a lack moral perfection. God created perfection. The Bible and Sacred Tradition tells us God is not the source of evil and sin, but we His creation are. Why does God allow evil and sin? He uses it for His purpose. Sinners are often brought to salvation. He uses it to demonstrate His grace and mercy. He uses it to show ultimately He can destroy it. These are not my ideas. Read


The Origin of Evil
Quote:
What to do????? How can the so called theologians of the OT deal with EVIL and not affect the perfection of God. Easy! Come up with an adversary. Let another creature be in charge of EVIL and voilá this leaves God's reputation intact.

Theologians did not create evil. They did not invent Satan and evil to make us fearful and to hold us captive. They were then, and are today, pointing out the consequences of our sinful choices.
Quote:
However, the mere fact that God allows Satan to exist is still a problem because it diminishes God at some level

I disagree for the reasons I stated above. Evil has the opposite effect. More people turn to God during times of calamity than in times of peace.
Quote:
Furthermore, the existence of Satan creates the "The devil made me do it" concept which is highly illogical. IN the end EVIL is within us and a result of our own free will. Satan is nothing but the symbol of evil within us.

Julian, in some ways, you are almost there. Evil is a result of our choice, or free will as you put it. You just need to separate where evil begins, it's within us-the creation, not God and not Satan and demons. When Eve was tempted by Satan in the garden, he didn't force what was God's perfect creature to eat the fruit. Eve knew not to eat it, she made that choice; Satan didn't make it for her. It shouldn't be "The devil made me do it" as Flip Wilson used to say, it should be, "The devil tempted me to do it, and I did."




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Old 10-26-2013, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Denver
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If Satan wrote a bible, what would be in it? Would he condemn himself?
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:08 PM
 
Location: New England
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There is no devil other than a mind that yields itself to anything other than Life and Peace.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
I wholeheartedly disagree. For one, there is no scientific proof Satan does not exist, nor do I doubt there ever will be. Secondly, church is not to conform itself to this world (though many have and are). They are to Christ’s bride, not Stephen Hawking’s, Charles Darwin’s or a host of others.
The non-existence of Satan is easy to prove if we make a couple of assumptions about God.

If God is everything then God occupies every single atom, quark, and energy in the entire universe. If God is truly the creator God is everything there is in the universe or multiverses. There is no room in the hotel for another entity to set camp.

If God is ALL powerful then there is no other force that can oppose what God wants.

If God is ALL good then God cannot create evil.

If God is ALL mighty, ALL powerful, and omnipotent there cannot exist a force that represents the opposite of God. And if this force exists then by definition God has an adversary and God is diminished.

We know EVIL exists. So how do we explain EVIL in the context of a God that is as perfect as described above. The concept of God creating evil diminishes God. And IMHO, God cannot be diminished. If God allows EVIL then God is seen as less than God. How could God allow EVIL? The latter has been a question that torments many. In fact, the mere existence of EVIL is the best argument atheists use to refute the existence of God. How can God allow so much EVIL?

So the ancients came up with an explanation to preserve the perfection of God. They created a small god of evil. The fallen angel that is responsible for the EVIL. In this manner God remains perfect. ANd there were some amazing benefits to the concept of Satan. As you can well see Satan is a magnificent preaching tool for ministers and priests from medieval times. It instills fear and the preacher believes that this fear will make people seek God. For them Satan was a win win situation.

How about creation?

If you were God? How would you create MANKIND? There is your answer to EVIL.


The CC sees agrees with evolution and cosmology under the guidance of God. That is the correct position.


Quote:
You need to read Genesis 3 which deals with the origin of evil.
Priscilla:

That is weak. The serpent made me do it is awful. MANKIND sins because MAN has free will. MAN sins on his own because MAN can choose the dark side or the good side. Satan is the EVIL within us and we wrestle with this on a daily basis.

Satan lives within us and can makes us do evil, but in reality Satan is our ability to choose evil. There is no external creature lurking behind our backs trying to make us fall. Satan is simply a manifestation of our free will. We are free to do EVIL or GOOD and it is ALL on us.





Quote:
You're in good company so to speak. Einstein wrestled with the same dilemma. He believed some force (God), which he acknowledged, created everything, but questioned how this force (God) allowed evil and suffering. He never got it. God is not responsible for evil, his creatures are. God gave each of us intelligence, reason, and choice. Evil is not a created thing, a substance, an entity, a being, a force, or a floating spirit. Evil is a lack moral perfection. God created perfection. The Bible and Sacred Tradition tells us God is not the source of evil and sin, but we His creation are. Why does God allow evil and sin? He uses it for His purpose. Sinners are often brought to salvation. He uses it to demonstrate His grace and mercy. He uses it to show ultimately He can destroy it. These are not my ideas. Read
Wow! I don't disagree with that at all!
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evangelist-77 View Post

• “For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath,
because he knows that he has a short time.” (Revelation 12:12)

You’ve heard about God’s plans for Satan (and the angels who followed him).
This is the reason why Satan hates God’s elect so much … because they get
to be with God throughout eternity … while he gets to be in the lake of fire!

A quick review of Satan’s beginnings …
• “the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty … You were the
anointed cherub who covers … You were perfect in your ways from the day
you were created, till iniquity was found in you … you sinned” (Ezekiel 28:12-16)
• “For you have said in your heart: ”I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my
throne above the stars of God … I will be like the Most High.” (Isaiah 14:12-17)


And a reminder of who Satan is NOW on earth …
• “the god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4)
• “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31)
• “the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19)
• “the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9)
• “there is no truth in him ... he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44)
• “the ruler of the demons” (Matthew 12:24)


Satan has blinded the eyes of all unregenerated humans …
• “… those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded,
who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

But, God gives the free gift of grace-faith (a revelation of truth) to some!

From here on … when I say Satan, I mean Satan or one (or more) of his demons.

Satan and man’s free will …
God created humans to have free will, not wishing to be worshipped by robots.
Satan can plant thoughts in man’s head (but cannot read his thoughts).
• If a Christian insists on entertaining a thought from Satan, and ignores
God’s “still small voice” (the Holy Spirit’s warning), God will NOT force him
to change his mind, i.e. He will NOT violate the Christian’s free will.
• If churches insist on entertaining thoughts from Satan, and ignore
God’s “still small voice” (the Holy Spirit’s warning), God will NOT force them
to change their minds, i.e. He will NOT violate their free will.

Satan and non-Christians …
How successful do you think Satan has been in deceiving the human race?
How successful has he been in keeping man from God’s plan of salvation?
If you believe Jesus is the only way, then you believe Satan has had enormous
triumphs in deceiving people to follow other major religions, cults, and sects.

Satan and the Christian churches …
Is deceiving Christians beyond the ability of “the god of this age”?
No, it is NOT … and this is why there are so many warnings about him in the NT.
What do you think his #1 priority would be … re: deceiving those in the church?
Surely, it would have to do with reducing the number of people gaining salvation.
I am aware of 2 major areas in which Satan has triumphed.

If anyone is interested, we can pursue this further.
What do you believe that Satan hates man?
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
There is no Satan.

Satan is merely the symbol of evil within us.

We need to move out of the dark ages.

The folks that wrote the bible lived in an era where evil was explained as Satan. We need to move into the 21st century.
This is what I believe also, that Satan is really a label for the disobedience of man. The Serpent in the Garden of Eden was Adam's disobedience. In other words it was Adam talking to Eve and tempting her to take of the forbidden fruit. Remember it says the following:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I wonder how many people catch that "with her" part. Why was it put there? What was that trying to show us? It is Adam that was trying to convince Eve to take of the forbidden fruit. After all she was made FOR ADAM. If She takes of the forbidden fruit then maybe it will be ok in God's Eyes since He made her for him. Maybe this is why Adam lashed out and blamed Eve as soon as they were caught.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:46 PM
 
535 posts, read 795,633 times
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
This is what I believe also, that Satan is really a label for the disobedience of man. The Serpent in the Garden of Eden was Adam's disobedience. In other words it was Adam talking to Eve and tempting her to take of the forbidden fruit. Remember it says the following:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I wonder how many people catch that "with her" part. Why was it put there? What was that trying to show us? It is Adam that was trying to convince Eve to take of the forbidden fruit. After all she was made FOR ADAM. If She takes of the forbidden fruit then maybe it will be ok in God's Eyes since He made her for him. Maybe this is why Adam lashed out and blamed Eve as soon as they were caught.
This makes no sense. How could Adam, who was perfect at this point, tempt Eve to disobey? It makes no sense! It's the other way around. Once Eve ate the fruit and sinned, she then tempted Adam to eat of it.

The fact that Adam is said to have been with her does not imply he tempted her. Even if Adam could tempt Eve, what would his motivation be? At most it means he heard the conversation between the serpent, God, and Eve, and did nothing to stop her.

Some have suggested Adam did nothing to stop Eve.
Others suggest Adam showed up at the close of the temptation.
Still others say it refers to their conjugal oneness, not in a literal sense.

I have never heard anyone until now suggest it means Adam tempted Eve.

Last edited by Priscilla Martin; 10-26-2013 at 01:56 PM..
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