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Old 10-26-2013, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
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...and yet another theory:

That the spirit is male (strong, head) and the soul is female (emotional, reasoning mind) and Adam and Eve represent both parts of man.

With this thinking, mankind now is dominated by soulish living and not spiritual living.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
This makes no sense. How could Adam, who was perfect at this point, tempt Eve to disobey? It makes no sense! It's the other way around. Once Eve ate the fruit and sinned, she then tempted Adam to eat of it.

The fact that Adam is said to have been with her does not imply he tempted her. Even if Adam could tempt Eve, what would his motivation be? At most it means he heard the conversation between the serpent, God, and Eve, and did nothing to stop her.

Some have suggested Adam did nothing to stop Eve.
Others suggest Adam showed up at the close of the temptation.
Still others say it refers to their conjugal oneness, not in a literal sense.

I have never heard anyone until now suggest it means Adam tempted Eve.
The story is allegoric since the CC accepts evolution (under God). However, the story doers make a point. Temptation can lead to EVIL. And the EVIL is within us.

They both saw a chance to get ahead and they went for it despite of consequences. The Evil is inside of us.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post



You keep twisting and turning your own convoluted theology whenever you find yourself trapped by inescapable truth. It seems that you do this in order to avoid categorically rejecting the Bible and Catholicism... yet, maintain some small degree of credibility. (?)
The Bible and Catholicism are one and the same. They are man made explanations to try to understand God. And that cannot be made by us mere mortals. The Bible, particularly the OT is very flawed and as such cannot be written by God. The men who wrote were likely inspired, but they made HUGE errors. I don't need to worship a book to have Jesus by my side because the book is not enough. At most the NT is a wonderful guide or brochure to Christianity, nothing more. However, I understand some folks need Scripture to follow. If you take that away they are lost.


Quote:
... Since the Bible and church apparently don't meet your 'standard', - can you enlighten us all to the consistent, reliable standard by which you believe truth should be determined??? ---or do you simply make this stuff-up as you go along???
My standard is simply philosophy (seeking wisdom). I don't pretend to have the answers. Socrates was correct when he said "I only know I know nothing". If the Bible or my church says something that makes no sense I point that out. I simply try to go beyond the standard dogma.


Quote:
??....So, since you do not believe and trust God beyond your own logic, ...you have concluded that IF God is omnipotent and good, and IF God allows free will, - and IF that free will opposes God and produces evil, ... then God is evil???
You are either using a straw man or you misunderstood my words.


God cannot create evil. If God creates evil then God is not God. IMO, that is the definition of a perfect God.

If God was to create MANKIND. How would he do it? He would do it as he has done. He created MAN with free will. To create MAN with no free will is illogical. It would be like creating a computer or millions of Jesus like people that cannot sin. The byproduct of creating MAN with free will is sin. And the sin is inevitable if the MAN has free will. And the creation of MAN with no free will is imperfect because MAN wants to have reason and autonomy. We are not programmed robots.

So EVIL is ALL on us and has nothing to do with God.



Quote:
...? What "so called theologians of the OT" are you referring to? -- Do you mean the Prophets and men of God who wrote the Bible under the inspiration of God and leading of the Holy Spirit??? --- Or some other theologians of which you have some knowledge??? --- Do you NOT believe God's reputation is still intact??
In a sense the prophets were theologians and they wrote to enhance the glory of the Jewish nation. And they had a very primitive view of God that is evident through out the OT.

Quote:
.... God has given man free will; Satan is allowed to offer lies and deception ... as the alternative for those who refuse to love, trust and obey God .....
If Satan manipulates man with lies then there is no free will. The evil behavior must come from within with no external manipulation from the so-called entity Satan. Everything you said above works well if you rephrase as follows:

.... God has given man free will; Man is allowed to come up with lies and deception ... as the alternative for those who refuse to love, trust and obey God

Quote:
..... How does that diminish God??? (Are you suggesting that God should rescind free will and 'force' everyone to do what He wants???
It diminishes God because God would be allowing an external force to manipulate MAN. Since MAN has free will he does not need manipulation by Satan to be evil. Man can be evil on his own as a result of free will.
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:44 PM
 
535 posts, read 798,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The non-existence of Satan is easy to prove if we make a couple of assumptions about God.

If God is everything then God occupies every single atom, quark, and energy in the entire universe. If God is truly the creator God is everything there is in the universe or multiverses. There is no room in the hotel for another entity to set camp.

If God is ALL powerful then there is no other force that can oppose what God wants.

If God is ALL good then God cannot create evil.

If God is ALL mighty, ALL powerful, and omnipotent there cannot exist a force that represents the opposite of God. And if this force exists then by definition God has an adversary and God is diminished.

We know EVIL exists. So how do we explain EVIL in the context of a God that is as perfect as described above. The concept of God creating evil diminishes God. And IMHO, God cannot be diminished. If God allows EVIL then God is seen as less than God. How could God allow EVIL? The latter has been a question that torments many. In fact, the mere existence of EVIL is the best argument atheists use to refute the existence of God. How can God allow so much EVIL?

So the ancients came up with an explanation to preserve the perfection of God. They created a small god of evil. The fallen angel that is responsible for the EVIL. In this manner God remains perfect. ANd there were some amazing benefits to the concept of Satan. As you can well see Satan is a magnificent preaching tool for ministers and priests from medieval times. It instills fear and the preacher believes that this fear will make people seek God. For them Satan was a win win situation.

How about creation?

If you were God? How would you create MANKIND? There is your answer to EVIL.


The CC sees agrees with evolution and cosmology under the guidance of God. That is the correct position.




Priscilla:

That is weak. The serpent made me do it is awful. MANKIND sins because MAN has free will. MAN sins on his own because MAN can choose the dark side or the good side. Satan is the EVIL within us and we wrestle with this on a daily basis.

Satan lives within us and can makes us do evil, but in reality Satan is our ability to choose evil. There is no external creature lurking behind our backs trying to make us fall. Satan is simply a manifestation of our free will. We are free to do EVIL or GOOD and it is ALL on us.







Wow! I don't disagree with that at all!
I explained the entire thing about God, Satan and Evil. If you choose to turn your back on what your church teaches, what God said and Jesus said is your choice. You can't make it up to fit your idea of what God should be.
What part of what I said about GOD NOT BEING THE AUTHOR OF EVIL escaped you?
You're not saying my argument is weak, YOU'RE SAYING THE WORD OF GOD, JESUS AND THE APOSTLES is weak. I never said the 'serpent made me do it.' I said THE SERPENT TEMPTS AND WE DECIDE. Where did evil originate, within us??? We were perfectly cast in HIS likeness. God is not the author of evil and neither are we. Of course, you probably don't believe in the FALL OF MAN either. Another church teaching, God teaching, Jesus teaching, and apostle teaching.
You're saying If God this and If God that is very telling. Replace the word If with any dictionary definition below.
Full Definition of IF Merriam-Webster
1
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that
Putting conditions on God is not far from blasphemous.
I REPEAT, YOU CAN NOT MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO. GOD CREATED US, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. MAKING HIM FIT YOUR HUMAN REASONING IDEAS OR IDEALS OF WHAT GOD SHOULD BE IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.

Your quick to condemn everyone who isn't Catholic, yet accept only the bits and pieces of Catholic doctrine that suit you.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:12 PM
 
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My most humble apologies ... I wrote this for born-again Christians to read.

Because most of them today have been taught to believe some erroneous doctrines,
which were instigated by Satan to cause fewer humans to end up being saved.

Yes, Satan is jealous of God because God and His chosen ones get to spend eternity in heaven,
while Satan and his followers will be spending it where God is not ... in a place called hell.

There were 2 major doctrines that Satan deceived the church into following and promoting.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
I explained the entire thing about God, Satan and Evil. If you choose to turn your back on what your church teaches, what God said and Jesus said is your choice. You can't make it up to fit your idea of what God should be.
The teaching of the church is complex and it is not an issue of turning away from God or Jesus. God is a mystery and Jesus wrote nothing. All we have are the words of unknown authors that often used the name of Apostles in their writings.




Quote:
What part of what I said about GOD NOT BEING THE AUTHOR OF EVIL escaped you?
You're not saying my argument is weak, YOU'RE SAYING THE WORD OF GOD, JESUS AND THE APOSTLES is weak. I never said the 'serpent made me do it.' I said THE SERPENT TEMPTS AND WE DECIDE. Where did evil originate, within us??? We were perfectly cast in HIS likeness. God is not the author of evil and neither are we. Of course, you probably don't believe in the FALL OF MAN either. Another church teaching, God teaching, Jesus teaching, and apostle teaching.
Good points! I think we are getting close to an understanding of EVIL in a manner that is both philosophical and puts God in it proper place of absolute perfection.

Augustine one of the greatest theologians in early Christianity wrestled with this issue. and this is what I think he concluded:

1) God created all things; 2) evil is a thing; 3) therefore, God created evil. If the first two premises are true, the conclusion is inescapable.

This is devastating for Christianity. God would not be good if He knowingly created evil.


This is my point! God cannot create evil! If Satan is a fallen Angel he was still created by God and God cannot create evil. It seems many Christians accept this without any thought because the concept of Satan has been engraved since childhood.


So lets try this one by Augustine:

1) All things that God created are good; 2) evil is not good; 3) therefore, evil was not created by God. Second: 1) God created every thing; 2) God did not create evil;

So where does evil come from?

Augustine felt that evil was simply the diminution of good. In other words everything is good until we remove the good. Evil is the absence of good. And God created good. In this system God has not created EVIL. Man has to remove the good created by God to reach EVIL.

IN this system there is no outside manipulative force trying to make us do EVIL.

To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons: "And I strained to perceive what I now heard, that free-will was the cause of our doing ill." Evil was a "perversion of the will, turned aside from...God" to lesser things.


This also fulfils your criterion regarding the fall of man and the fact that Adam and Eve were free of sin.








Quote:
You're saying If God this and If God that is very telling. Replace the word If with any dictionary definition below.
Full Definition of IF Merriam-Webster
1
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that
Putting conditions on God is not far from blasphemous.
I REPEAT, YOU CAN NOT MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO. GOD CREATED US, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. MAKING HIM FIT YOUR HUMAN REASONING IDEAS OR IDEALS OF WHAT GOD SHOULD BE IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.
I used a lot of "ifs", but my 'ifs" elevate God to a state of true perfection which is not the God of folks in the Bible where some believe God demands to be worshiped.

Quote:
Your quick to condemn everyone who isn't Catholic, yet accept only the bits and pieces of Catholic doctrine that suit you.
A bit of a Straw Man. I have said ALL Christians are catholic many times. I simply defend when I see statements that make no sense whatsoever. Like someone putting down the devotion to the Virgin Mary because somehow God will be upset. That is very asinine and needs a rebuttal. It assumes God is jealous and petty. My 'ifs" assume God is well above that.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Denver
3,200 posts, read 2,658,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
...and yet another theory:

That the spirit is male (strong, head) and the soul is female (emotional, reasoning mind) and Adam and Eve represent both parts of man.

With this thinking, mankind now is dominated by soulish living and not spiritual living.
I don't like your analogy. Reasoning is neither a male nor female, but human, rather even animal characteristic.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:13 PM
 
Location: New England
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The belief in the devil is the downfall of Christianity.
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:17 AM
 
535 posts, read 798,203 times
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[quote=Julian658;31972004]
Quote:
The teaching of the church is complex and it is not an issue of turning away from God or Jesus. God is a mystery and Jesus wrote nothing. All we have are the words of unknown authors that often used the name of Apostles in their writings.
Prove this.
Quote:
Good points! I think we are getting close to an understanding of EVIL in a manner that is both philosophical and puts God in it proper place of absolute perfection. Augustine one of the greatest theologians in early Christianity wrestled with this issue. and this is what I think he concluded:
1) God created all things; 2) evil is a thing; 3) therefore, God created evil. If the first two premises are true, the conclusion is inescapable.This is devastating for Christianity. God would not be good if He knowingly created evil.
This is my point! God cannot create evil! If Satan is a fallen Angel he was still created by God and God cannot create evil. It seems many Christians accept this without any thought because the concept of Satan has been engraved since childhood.
You are mixed up, your should read C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain Here's an excerpt:
Quote 1. "In the fallen and partially redeemed universe we may distinguish (1) the simple good descending from God, (2) the simple evil produced by rebellious creatures, and (3) the exploitation of that evil by God for His redemptive purpose, which produces (4) the complex good to which accepted suffering and repented sin contribute. […] A merciful man aims at his neighbour's good as so does 'God's' will, consciously co-operating with 'the simple good'. A cruel man oppresses his neighbour and so does simple evil. But in doing such evil he is used by God, without his knowledge or consent, to produce the complex good — so that the first man serves God as a son, and the second as a tool. For you will certainly carry out God's purpose, however you act, but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John".
Quote 2. "Christianity now has to preach the diagnosis — in itself a very bad news — before it can win the hearing for the cure."
Quote 3. "We are, at present, creatures whose character must be, in some respects, a horror to God, as it is, when we really see it, a horror to ourselves."
Now, before you jump up and down and shout "I'm right" by my bolding the simple evil produced by rebellious creatures we need to dig deeper into Lewis's view on evil. In The Screwtape Letters he makes it perfectly clear when Screwtape instructs his nephew Wormwood that humans are merely food for demons. “Our aim is the absorption of its will into ours, the increase of our own area of selfhood at its expense,” he writes. Then Screwtape continually reminds his nephew Wormwood of the possibility of being devoured for his mistakes. He warns: “bring us back food or be food yourself.” Satan is not the opposite of God, he’s the opposite of the Archangel Michael. Hollywood and fiction-writers have elevated Satan and his minions to an almost omniscient and omnipotent position. Lewis keeps Satan and the demons in their proper places and reminds his readers that it would be as wrong to over-estimate Satan’s power as to under-estimate it.


Quote:
So lets try this one by Augustine:
1) All things that God created are good; 2) evil is not good; 3)
therefore, evil was not created by God. Second: 1) God created every thing; 2)
God did not create evil;So where does evil come from? Augustine felt that evil was simply the
diminution of good. In other words everything is good until we remove the good. Evil is the absence of good. And God created good. In this system God has not created EVIL. Man has to remove the good created by God to reach EVIL. IN this system there is no outside manipulative force trying to make us do EVIL.To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons: "And I
strained to perceive what I now heard, that free-will was the cause of our doing
ill." Evil was a "perversion of the will, turned aside from...God" to lesser
things.
LET'S TRY THIS FROM ST. AUGUSTINE:Empty Evil and the Positive Devil in Augustinian Philosophy
Quote:
St. Augustine repeatedly gave evidence in his works that he believed in a positive existence of spirited beings. For instance in book nineteen of The City of God alone St. Augustine mentioned "demons," "angels," "devil," or "Satan" eleven times (as in Phil. 91-111). His most striking passage explained the seeming contradiction between his ontology based upon goodness and the existence of the presumably purely evil devil. "Not even the devil himself is evil, so far as its nature; but perversity makes it evil" (The City of God 19, 13; as in Phil. 103). The devil itself, then, had some goodness in it, however meager, because of its very existence. Clearly, St. Augustine held that spirited beings, notably demons, did exist.
St. Augustine was no Manichean. Therefore, there was much of a question as to what demons' roles were in the world, something St. Augustine did not leave entirely unanswered. Evil, as Williams clearly noted, could not possess "a power of initiative, a capacity to set intelligible goals in a lastingly coherent manner" (111). Demons, being the most evil of creatures due to their straying furthest from their essence, lost all coherence, all order when they embraced the privation of good. Though not possessing coherence and initiative, demons had a positive existence for St. Augustine and, therefore because of their corrupted nature, had a unique role in Augustinian metaphysics.
Quote:
I used a lot of "ifs", but my 'ifs" elevate God to a state of true perfection which is not the God of folks in the Bible where some believe God demands to be worshiped.
I thought more about this last night. It's not so much the use of the word IF, but your use of IF, THEN conditional statements to box God in. If God is GOOD, then GOD can't make evil. This line of reasoning is faulty because it puts limits on what God can and can't be. He can do anything He wants anyway He sees fit. He can't be constrained by the limits of our human reasoning.

Quote:
A bit of a Straw Man. I have said ALL Christians are catholic many times. I simply defend when I see statements that make no sense whatsoever. Like someone putting down the devotion to the Virgin Mary because somehow God will be upset. That is very asinine and needs a rebuttal. It assumes God is jealous and petty. My 'ifs" assume God is well above that.
God is jealous.
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me Exodus 20:5
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Deut 4:24
They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger. Deut 32:16
They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. Deut 32:21
When the veneration of Mary is supplanted or wrongly becomes Mary worship, then God is jealous and not "above it" as you state. You mentioned the golden calf in another post. I wish everyone would take the time, especially you, to read this:MARY WORSHIP by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun) MARY WORSHIP by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)


I'll close with this:
St. John Vianney when presenting a homily on temptation once wrote:
It is most unfortunate for ourselves if we do not know that we are tempted in almost all our actions, at one time by pride, by vanity, by the good opinion which we think people should have of us, at another by jealousy, by hatred and by revenge. At other times the Devil comes to us with the foulest and most impure images. You see that even in our prayers he distracts us and turns our minds this way and that (The Sermons of the Cure of Ars, 90-91).

How is Satan tempting us to sin today? Pride in your church? Hatred of other faiths or religions? Revenge against those who bash us?
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:24 AM
 
9,907 posts, read 6,771,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Prove this.

You are mixed up, your should read C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain
I have a few booklets by CS Lewis. I like his reasoning. I have not read this one, but the title gives it away. Pain is easy to explain within the context of FREE WILL. For example your neighbor has the freedom to inflict pain on you. And you have the freedom to retaliate or do nothing. FREE WILL is not easy, but at the same time a magnificent creation. Life with no struggle can get boring very quickly.

I have no issue accepting pain and adversity and see no contradiction with what God stands for.


Quote:
Now, before you jump up and down and shout "I'm right" by my bolding the simple evil produced by rebellious creatures we need to dig deeper into Lewis's view on evil. In The Screwtape Letters
This is like a fable, so I can accept this.


Quote:
LET'S TRY THIS FROM ST. AUGUSTINE:Empty Evil and the Positive Devil in Augustinian Philosophy
Augustine is a man of his era, but he was still well ahead of the curve in these issues and his views on good and evil resonate with my own personal views. And it keeps God perfect.

Quote:
I thought more about this last night. It's not so much the use of the word IF, but your use of IF, THEN conditional statements to box God in. If God is GOOD, then GOD can't make evil. This line of reasoning is faulty because it puts limits on what God can and can't be. He can do anything He wants anyway He sees fit. He can't be constrained by the limits of our human reasoning.
If God creates evil on purpose then I don't believe in that God. Ultimate perfection has to be absence of evil as evil is destructive.

The God of the OT is the view of very primitive minds that were not as enlightened as Augustine. Unfortunately the primitive mind set is prevalent today because people take the bible literally and forget that it was written by men from another era. As bright as Isaac Newton was he believed in alchemy because he was a man of his era. If Newton had lived in this era he would not believe in alchemy.

By the way another giant of Christian philosophy Thomas Aquina also agrees with Augustine.

Aquinas supported Augustine's view that evil is a privation of goodness, maintaining that evil has existence as a privation intrinsically found in good.[23] The existence of this evil, Aquinas believed, can be completely explained by free will. Faced with the assertion that humans would have been better off without free will, he argued that the possibility of sin is necessary for a perfect world, and so individuals are responsible for their sin.[7] Good is the cause of evil, but only owing the fault on the part of the agent. In his theodicy, to say something is evil is to say that it lacks goodness which means that it could not be part of God's creation, because God's creation lacked nothing. Aquinas noted that, although goodness makes evil possible, it does not necessitate evil. This means that God (who is good) is not cast as the cause of evil, because evil arises out of a defect in an agent, and God is seen to be without defect.


Quote:
God is jealous.
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me Exodus 20:5
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Deut 4:24
They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger. Deut 32:16
They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. Deut 32:21
God cannot be jealous because jealousy is a sign of imperfection and insecurity. God cannot have a weakness. No point in citing the views of primitive men that assigned God human qualities.

Quote:
When the veneration of Mary is supplanted or wrongly becomes Mary worship, then God is jealous and not "above it" as you state. You mentioned the golden calf in another post. I wish everyone would take the time, especially you, to read this:MARY WORSHIP by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun) MARY WORSHIP by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)
The veneration of Mary is a devotion. You can go to mass every Sunday for five years and see that the mass is about Jesus, the bible, and the Eucharist. At most the priest asks Mary and the Saints to pray for us once. This is part of the beauty of Catholicism. Do you realize many have converted to Catholicism by simply hearing the Shubert Ave María?

Mary Ann Collins is a former Catholic. There is no one more anti Catholic than an ex Catholic. All the Protestant apologist zero in on Mary, but the argument only makes sense if we assume God is jealous. And the latter is highly illogical! The devotion of Mary is part of the culture of Catholicism and it enriches the human condition. And lastly everybody knows Mary is not a goddess.


Quote:
[/b] At other times the Devil comes to us with the foulest and most impure images. You see that even in our prayers he distracts us and turns our minds this way and that (The Sermons of the Cure of Ars, 90-91).[/color]

How is Satan tempting us to sin today? Pride in your church? Hatred of other faiths or religions? Revenge against those who bash us?
Priscilla:

This is primitive medieval thinking. And it reeks of Satan made me do it.

I enjoy debating this issues with you and I hope I don't sound too blunt which I often do.

I don't believe Catholicism is perfect. It is flawed as long as it is run by MEN. What I like about Catholicism is that beneath all the millenary traditions you find people that actually get the true meaning of God without all the mythological issues that actually diminish God.
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