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Old 10-27-2013, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
This makes no sense. How could Adam, who was perfect at this point, tempt Eve to disobey? It makes no sense! It's the other way around. Once Eve ate the fruit and sinned, she then tempted Adam to eat of it.
Think about what your saying for a moment. Your saying that Adam was perfect at that point but if he was perfect would what is perfect make such an imperfect decision? If so, then what good is being perfect?

Quote:
The fact that Adam is said to have been with her does not imply he tempted her. Even if Adam could tempt Eve, what would his motivation be? At most it means he heard the conversation between the serpent, God, and Eve, and did nothing to stop her.

Some have suggested Adam did nothing to stop Eve.
Others suggest Adam showed up at the close of the temptation.
Still others say it refers to their conjugal oneness, not in a literal sense.

I have never heard anyone until now suggest it means Adam tempted Eve.
Good, then I bring you a new perspective.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The teaching of the church is complex and it is not an issue of turning away from God or Jesus. God is a mystery and Jesus wrote nothing. All we have are the words of unknown authors that often used the name of Apostles in their writings.






Good points! I think we are getting close to an understanding of EVIL in a manner that is both philosophical and puts God in it proper place of absolute perfection.

Augustine one of the greatest theologians in early Christianity wrestled with this issue. and this is what I think he concluded:

1) God created all things; 2) evil is a thing; 3) therefore, God created evil. If the first two premises are true, the conclusion is inescapable.

This is devastating for Christianity. God would not be good if He knowingly created evil.


This is my point! God cannot create evil! If Satan is a fallen Angel he was still created by God and God cannot create evil. It seems many Christians accept this without any thought because the concept of Satan has been engraved since childhood.


So lets try this one by Augustine:

1) All things that God created are good; 2) evil is not good; 3) therefore, evil was not created by God. Second: 1) God created every thing; 2) God did not create evil;

So where does evil come from?

Augustine felt that evil was simply the diminution of good. In other words everything is good until we remove the good. Evil is the absence of good. And God created good. In this system God has not created EVIL. Man has to remove the good created by God to reach EVIL.

IN this system there is no outside manipulative force trying to make us do EVIL.

To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons: "And I strained to perceive what I now heard, that free-will was the cause of our doing ill." Evil was a "perversion of the will, turned aside from...God" to lesser things.


This also fulfils your criterion regarding the fall of man and the fact that Adam and Eve were free of sin.










I used a lot of "ifs", but my 'ifs" elevate God to a state of true perfection which is not the God of folks in the Bible where some believe God demands to be worshiped.


A bit of a Straw Man. I have said ALL Christians are catholic many times. I simply defend when I see statements that make no sense whatsoever. Like someone putting down the devotion to the Virgin Mary because somehow God will be upset. That is very asinine and needs a rebuttal. It assumes God is jealous and petty. My 'ifs" assume God is well above that.
The creaton of evil brings about a better GOOD. That is the signifiance of Evil. Light is so much better when we have experienced the dark.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by evangelist-77 View Post
Please re-phrase your question ... thanks.
Sorry, the question is "Why do you believe that Satan hates man?"
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:11 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Sorry, the question is "Why do you believe that Satan hates man?"
Simple ... Jesus said so.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Priscilla:

The CC still has Satan on the books. Now, that is very sad because one assumes the church to be better than that. IN this regard they need to come out of the Dark Ages and move to the 21st century. I have no issues in pointing out areas where the CHurch needs to change. The CC already believes in evolution and the Big Bang, so there is hope for change. At the priest level some have already made the switch and acknowledge there is no Satan.

The Problem with EVIL is a theological nightmare.

If God is all mighty, omnipotent, and ALL good------- how can God allow EVIL. By definition nothing EVIL comes from God. If we have a God that does nothing to prevent evil then God is seen as imperfect. One would think that a true God which is perfection would not create evil or allow evil.

What to do????? How can the so called theologians of the OT deal with EVIL and not affect the perfection of God. Easy! Come up with an adversary. Let another creature be in charge of EVIL and voilŠ this leaves God's reputation intact.

However, the mere fact that God allows Satan to exist is still a problem because it diminishes God at some level.

Furthermore, the existence of Satan creates the "The devil made me do it" concept which is highly illogical.

IN the end EVIL is within us and a result of our own free will. Satan is nothing but the symbol of evil within us.
God gives us the freewill not to love Him, does He not? God knows that love without freewill is no love at all. It's really that simple. The devil is allowed to exist to provide an alternative.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Sorry, the question is "Why do you believe that Satan hates man?"
Is the ' woe ' for earth mentioned at Revelation 12 vs 9,12 showing Satan's love or hatred for mankind ?_______
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
The creaton of evil brings about a better GOOD. That is the signifiance of Evil. Light is so much better when we have experienced the dark.
I agree, evil, disaster, struggle, loss, etc makes the light that much better.

However, how can God create evil? What kind of God creates evil?

If God is ALL good then God cannot create evil.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Think about what your saying for a moment. Your saying that Adam was perfect at that point but if he was perfect would what is perfect make such an imperfect decision? If so, then what good is being perfect?
.
Besides Adam being created with healthy human perfection, the angels were created with angelic perfection.

James 1 vs 13-15 explains that each one is drawn out by his own desires.
Satan desires that humans worship him. That is a wrong desire that caused Satan to loose his angelic perfection.

God created all as free moral agents with relative perfection while God possesses absolute perfection.
A wedding ring can be 'perfect' for use in a marriage ceremony. Not meaning the wedding ring is absolutely perfect.
The Hebrew words translated as perfect is often used in connection to mean: complete, mature, or faultless.
Satan, Adam, Eve and Jesus started out faultless. Satan and Adam and Eve did not remain that way.
Satan and Adam were Not to go beyond the limits or boundaries given to them.
Adam and Eve were Not to break God's law or they would return to the dust of the ground.
Adam lost his healthy sound human perfection when he broke God's law and father Adam passed down to us his acquired human imperfection. Since we are innocent of what Adam did, then God sent Jesus to undo all the wrong Satan and Adam brought upon us. Our own free-will choices will be determining or deciding factors that Jesus, as righteous Judge, will use.- Isaiah 11 vs 3,4.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I agree, evil, disaster, struggle, loss, etc makes the light that much better.
However, how can God create evil? What kind of God creates evil?
If God is ALL good then God cannot create evil.
'Evil' in Scripture is Not always synonymous with wrongdoing.

The Flood of Noah's day was an evil in the form of a calamity to protect the righteous.

The executional words from Jesus' mouth will be a calamity against the wicked protecting the righteous ones.
- Psalm 92 v 7; Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Rev. 19 vs 11,15; 7 v 14
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
God gives us the freewill not to love Him, does He not? God knows that love without freewill is no love at all. It's really that simple. The devil is allowed to exist to provide an alternative.
The devil is only temporarily allowed to exist [ Rev. 12 v 12; Psalm 37 v 10 ]

Satan did Not challenge God's power or strength. Satan challenged Job [ 2 vs 4,5 ] and us that touch our 'flesh' [ loose health ] and we would turn against God. That brings up the issue of Sovereignty. Whose rule is best to obey ?
Under adverse conditions who would remain faithful to God. Satan and Adam proved disloyal under favorable conditions.
Jesus and Job, on the other hand, proved faithful under adverse conditions and so can we.

After Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, Satan and his demons will be destroyed.- Psalm 92 v 7; Hebrews 2 v14 B.
The rest will spend a sin-less eternity either in heaven for some, or on a paradisaic earth as Eden was a sample garden.
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