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Old 11-03-2013, 03:00 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
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To say that a true believer would never go back into a life of sin is to deny Heb. 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [ which in my opinion only occurs with the gift of the Holy Spirit] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, See also the words of Christ about when the unclean spirit goes out of a man and he goes back into a life of sin, the latter end of him is worse than if he had never begun.
Now if the professing believer had never been given the Holy Ghost, which Peter said in Acts 5:32 that God gives as a gift to those who obey Him, then if he repents of his sins, he can still be forgiven. But the Holy Ghost, if we let it direct our ways, will give us power to resist going into willful, premeditated malicious sins. All believers make mistakes on a daily basis, but if we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness [1John 1:9.]
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Old 11-03-2013, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,765,251 times
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Because being saved has got nothing to do with heaven and hell. I wish universalists would make and stress this point. Salvation is being reconciled to the Father and being unwavering in faith and confidence in the knowledge of it, so that we can live(out of love) our lives how he intended, with the awareness and reality of God in our lives, having at our disposal all things that pertain to life and godliness and the knowledge that God is an ever present help in time of trouble(this life of futility and vanity). Paul didn't worry, he was inspired for all to know this.
As far as I am concerned, to believe in salvation from eternal hell to eternal heaven is a life of wandering around the wilderness, having to appease God.
I agree, and by the way, the Jews were waiting for the Messiah to appear - do you think any of them thought he was going to save them from eternal torment in hell? Was that why they were waiting for his appearance? Did they worry that if they missed "His Time of Visitation" that they would be going to eternal torment in hell as well as their loved ones? I don't think so. I don't think Jews taught any such thing.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:06 AM
Zur
 
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Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
Adam and Eve, king David? What salvation? That was OT. And yes, Jesus took away all sins. It's scripture. As Christians, we are not under the law anymore, so what you say is not truth.
Do you think king David is not saved? He is already in Heaven. If he would not repent, he would be in hell. We are not under the law, but grace. But God is the same, His principles are the same. In the OT they had to fulfill the Law, under the NT we can overcome sin by the power of God and serve Him in righteousness and without fear. Not being under the law does not give anyone the license to sin! The bible says who sins will be judged with or without law. Your problem is, you think grace covers lawlessness and all sins are already forgiven. A christian has to walk in the light (1.Jn 1:5-10), If he sins a sin to death he becomes a slave to sin. If he does not repent, he is lost. That Christians cannot get rid of sin is because the lack of the power of the Holy Spirit, discernment and deliverance. If believers want to keep the law in their own power they are in trouble. Christ in us is the hope of glory. So long you teach the people they can live a lifestyle of adultery and go still to Heaven, Christians are in danger. Because most of the church are worldly and lukewarm, there teaching has become a burden. To solve the problem and get the crowds, they preach sin is not the problem anymore and everyone is happy, the problem seems to be solved. UR does the same, but in a broader level. But what says the bible, you really see the whole picture, who has blinded you?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:28 AM
Zur
 
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Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
I believe that Rom 5:9-20 pretty clearly answers your basic question. (As indicated, Death entered the world through Adam, while 'Life' came through Christ. (Sin was not counted against man until the law was given. There is a significant difference between the OT covenants and the NT covenant under Christ. But, since ALL people in our generation fall under the NT Covenant in Christ, the OT covenant is no longer applicable to us.

Rom 5:9-20 --- 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
No, you did not answer my question. Adam and Eve were created very good. They had the live of God, which is everlasting. But they lost it. This is my point. That a Christian that follows Jesus is secure according to the bible, I do not disagree with. I know the bible as you pointed out. We speak about Christians that live in sin or have already fallen away (Rev 3:1-6; Hebr 6:4-8).
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:27 PM
 
Location: New England
32,260 posts, read 21,131,193 times
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Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I agree, and by the way, the Jews were waiting for the Messiah to appear - do you think any of them thought he was going to save them from eternal torment in hell? Was that why they were waiting for his appearance? Did they worry that if they missed "His Time of Visitation" that they would be going to eternal torment in hell as well as their loved ones? I don't think so. I don't think Jews taught any such thing.
We like them have that wrong too. The appearing of Christ is Christ revealed within. The natural man looks for an appearing of Christ without, the spiritual man looks for the appearing of him within. Jesus Christ revealed where God is...........Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me(if we're honest this us the testimony of most of us)......... Within is where the scriptures testify that we will find him. For most of us it is the last place we look for him.
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:27 PM
 
238 posts, read 229,423 times
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Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Nobody can and will boast of his salvation. Every Christian knows it is by grace. The disciples asked Jesus "Who can then be saved?" And Jesus answered by man it is not possible, but by God all things are possible. But by our free will we deceid to receive Jesus and get forgiveness of our sins and then we make the choices to follow Him or walk away from Him. If God is alone responsible for our salvation, than UR is right, we all will be saved in the end. I am sorry, we have a free will and God respects our choice, no one is kidnapped to Heaven. We walk the narrow way with Christ or we go without Christ and walk the broad way and build on sand, that leads to destruction.
Zur is doing such a great job of explaining the truth that I have no need to say anything.

Except, I will add ... one's initial free gift of grace-faith is never guaranteed to last forever.
I.E. one can, through his free will, run away from God's grace, salvation, everything!
IMO, free will is King ... God gave it to us for a purpose, and He will not override it.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:36 PM
 
Location: New England
32,260 posts, read 21,131,193 times
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Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Nobody can and will boast of his salvation. Every Christian knows it is by grace. The disciples asked Jesus "Who can then be saved?" And Jesus answered by man it is not possible, but by God all things are possible. But by our free will we deceid to receive Jesus and get forgiveness of our sins and then we make the choices to follow Him or walk away from Him. If God is alone responsible for our salvation, than UR is right, we all will be saved in the end. I am sorry, we have a free will and God respects our choice, no one is kidnapped to Heaven. We walk the narrow way with Christ or we go without Christ and walk the broad way and build on sand, that leads to destruction.
You're right no one is kidnapped. Yet you still make the arm of The Lord short to save, if you believe sin and mans free will is more powerful and influential than the creator himself.

There is not a Christian who does not believe that the Law puts all guilty before God.

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

This law did not consult your free will and give you a choice about this, it came to you and killed you.

For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32(remember you had no free will choice in this matter) We were all shut up unto disobedience by the law. Why ?, because God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, quickened us together with Christ.

And so just as the law put you to death without your free will or consent, so God who is rich in mercy and abounding in grace restored you back to himself without it too. Now the only difference in the peoples of the world, is those who know and believe it and enjoy it and those who do not and remain in darkness to what is truly already theirs.

Does God need our permission to do something wonderful for us, and what can be more wonderful than him BEING our Savior ?. When we freely do something wonderful and out of love for another, do we need to ask their consent first ?.

Last edited by pcamps; 11-04-2013 at 03:12 PM..
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,820,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
No, you did not answer my question. Adam and Eve were created very good. They had the live of God, which is everlasting. But they lost it. This is my point. That a Christian that follows Jesus is secure according to the bible, I do not disagree with. I know the bible as you pointed out. We speak about Christians that live in sin or have already fallen away (Rev 3:1-6; Hebr 6:4-8).
Adam and Eve did not have the Life of God. God's Life is unending and never began.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,144 posts, read 34,386,217 times
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Originally Posted by evangelist-77 View Post
I would check again ... James 1 and Rev 2.

Also, because of some other Scriptures ...
these verses Mark 13:13, Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13 ...
“But he who endures to the end (i.e. death) shall be saved.”
are considered by Christians to have a dual meaning, i.e. physical and spiritual death.
Wouldn't that depend on what "endure to the end" means?

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 11-04-2013 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:09 PM
 
238 posts, read 229,423 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Wouldn't that depend on what "endure to the end" means?
I repeat, because of what some other Scriptures clearly say,

these verses Mark 13:13, Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13 ...
“But he who endures to the end (i.e. death) shall be saved.”

are considered by Christians to have a dual meaning, i.e. physical and spiritual death.
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