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Old 11-01-2013, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post

>>I take greater issue with the dogmatic presumption that "Matthew is deliberately misquoting or fabricating (aka: manipulating) scripture to make passages a prophecy of Jesus" ... than with the passage itself. This is unwarranted -- and certainly does not support the general indictment of scripture or prophecy that seems to be inferred. <<

RESPONSE:

But unfortunately is a demonstrable fact. And fact don't go away. One has to pretend that they don't exist.

>>Rather, over 300 pretty specific, accurately fulfilled, Messianic prophecies in scripture carry more weight .... and justify some latitude when dealing with a single passage that cannot be readily understood. I think that the larger issue at stake here is one's overall attitude toward the Bible. In that context, it has been pretty consistently proven that folks will find whatever they are seeking and willing to see .... truth, .. or error.
RESPONSE:

No. They are not really specific. Perhaps you can present some that specifically describe Jesus as the messiah.

How about beginning with Jesus being a biological offspring ("of the seed of" ) both David and Solomon and sitting on the throne of Israel.
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It only proves what I and others have been asserting all along: the ORIGINAL writings may have been Holy Spirit-inspired, but what we have today is definitely NOT what the Holy Spirit transmitted to the original writers, but have been tampered with, altered, and are riddled with inconsistencies and errors. Our present-day Bible is not "inerrant" no matter how much the apologists try to whitewash its contents. But the core message that Jesus saves us is still intact and that really is all that matters.
RESPONSE:

If you concede major tempering, you really can't be sure of that, can you?
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Maybe it is from the Septuagint...
RESPONSE:

Wherever it came from, Matthew's supposedly inerrant and inspired writings is clearly in error.
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:30 AM
 
11,239 posts, read 11,262,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

If you concede major tempering, you really can't be sure of that, can you?
Why can't I? The fact we argue around here incessantly from soup to nuts about Biblical content and never get anything resolved shows exactly how miserable a failure the present-day Bible is at providing answers to pressing questions about such things as our eternal destiny and who Jesus actually died for, among ten thousand other things.
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:55 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,016,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Why can't I? The fact we argue around here incessantly from soup to nuts about Biblical content and never get anything resolved shows exactly how miserable a failure the present-day Bible is at providing answers to pressing questions about such things as our eternal destiny and who Jesus actually died for, among ten thousand other things.
Theology is no better than endless philosophy and has no substance except head knowledge. Christ however teaches/imputes the Spirit of Truth [supernatural] about the substance of God which is the power of love, peace, joy and wisdom for living not mere heady knowledge. We have little need to debate but rather we testify with confidence that Christ and His word is true.

My prayer is that people will discover the difference between Theology and actually knowing God.

Last edited by garya123; 11-02-2013 at 05:11 PM..
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,282 posts, read 5,491,414 times
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Default Hunger for God

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It only proves what I and others have been asserting all along: the ORIGINAL writings may have been Holy Spirit-inspired, but what we have today is definitely NOT what the Holy Spirit transmitted to the original writers, but have been tampered with, altered, and are riddled with inconsistencies and errors. Our present-day Bible is not "inerrant" no matter how much the apologists try to whitewash its contents. But the core message that Jesus saves us is still intact and that really is all that matters.
I've always wondered why inerrantists haven't argued that the alterations themselves were inspired and inerrant. It makes about as much sense.

The truth for all of us is that if we do not have a God that is so far beyond the Bible, so unfathomable, so "Beyond" us, then we don't have much of a God anyway. No words, written by any man can ever speak to the Great Mystery of God. They may point us in that direction, but they cannot pin God down turning Him into a kind of Super Being. People are beings, creation is things, but even trying to limit God to "spirit" is in itself limiting Who He Is.

Throughout the Renaissance as "rational" thought became the order of the day, man, even religious man, has tried to pigeonhole God. But actually we never do, because there is always another question, another sense of wonder, another inability to find meaning short of looking beyond ourselves into what we really do not fathom.

In modern society Christianity became a little church in a bigger world. Believing Christians have found themselves a minority in a wider culture that bears the stamp of other influences. The modern atmosphere of skepticism made all truth claims sound relative. Christian faith has been thrown into crisis. Karl Rahner, a German theologian who began his writings in the 1930s, has addressed modern issues facing Christianity.

For Christians trying to make a personal commitment to Christ modern society is marked not only with atheism and agnosticism, but the very thing Ancient displays over and over--positivism which restricts what we can know to data accessible from the natural sciences, a secularism which gets on with the business at hand impatient of the ultimate questions in life.

This is Ancient's argument in a nutshell. He is stuck worshiping natural science and perhaps even humanistic values that allow a life of ethical integrity without faith.

Where does that leave people of faith? It is winter, the leaves have fallen from the trees, the luxuriant growth of Christianity dimmed by natural science. Where do we stand? We who have faith? In such a season, belief must get back to the basics. To survive, people of faith need to return to the center, to the inmost core that alone is able to nourish and warm the heart. And the one thing that can never escape the minds of the Ancients of the world is the question of God.

Church teaching and preaching according to Rahner is frequently drawing on an idea of God unworthy of belief, rather than communicating the reality, the beauty, the wonder, and the strange generosity of the mystery of God. All to often sermons work with the tired ideas of modern theism, reflecting a precritical mentality that sees God as a particular element of the whole, even if the highest. We fall into the traps set by the Ancients by fashioning our arguments on their playing field. We fashion God as Someone whom we can calculate into our formula of how things work, and therefore we replace the INCOMPREHENSIBLE God.

God remains radically distinct. Matthew, as the other gospel writers, did their best, but it in no way comes close to the real God of the Beyond. Church statements about God are too often naive and too superficial to help believers, let alone convince unbelievers. Rahner wrote, "the struggle against atheism is foremost and of necessity a struggle against the inadequacy of our own theism."

Do you ever wonder why we ask questions? From our time as the smallest children until our old age we continue to ask questions. Questions literally pour from us, questions about the weather, about starting a business, about the best place to live--CD is filled to the brim with questioning humanity. Questions both existential and practical pour forth in an unending torrent.

Ponder what this ordinary experience tells us about ourselves. A question PRESUMES that we do not know something, but in an interesting way it also implies that we know a little something or it would be impossible to ask about to begin with. A question shows we have a desire to know something. The answer expands our knowledge and we make judgments about whether it fits or does not satisfy the question asked. Even a perfectly good answer does not allow our mind to rest for long, because the answer comes into contact with other information inside us and triggers our curiosity anew, thereby becoming the basis for a new question.

It has no end--it is endless. And so it is when we begin to look at God. Whenever someone gets to the point that they THINK they have God pinned down, you can be certain that they have instead created an idol and stopped looking--and questioning.

I have stated numerous times that my goal is to follow Jesus' instruction to "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you." But the presupposition of many is that if a door opens that the journey ends. In fact there is another door beyond the first, and still another after that, and on and on, because God IS INFINITY and will not be pinned down. This is basically transcendental philosophy.

Invited into a science lab where a scientist with a lab coat is peering into a microscope most of us would question, "What is he looking at." A transcendenalist would not ask to peer through the microscope, but instead would wonder what basic condition of human nature makes it possible for that scientist to pursue evidence and make a discovery in the first place. In a very real way human beings are oriented toward boundless truth. We can't help ourselves. Hence we search for God. We write about God, we talk about God, we ask questions about Him, and every time a door opens, LO, there is another one just beyond.

As a human being we don't just ask questions--we ARE a question in search of the fulness of truth. And this seeking that is in our inner selves is in fact the very "proof" that we were made to find our way back to God in an unconventional way, in a non-rationalistic way, without relying on Bibles or Icons or Churches, but by relying on God to reach out for us and find us where we are.

As human beings we can never form an adequate idea nor arrive at total possession of God. We will never reach the end of seeking and exploring, having figured it all out. If you've ever stood on a plain and looked down parallel train tracks into the far distance, it appears at some point that they come together, but if you walk down the track to the point you first observed the tracks have opened up to another distant point. THAT is our spiritual life. Never arriving, but always questioning and looking.

As Rahner wrote:

"The horizon itself cannot be present within the horizon. The ultimate measure cannot be measured; the boundary which delimits all things cannot itself be bounded by a still more distant limit. The infinite and immense which comprises all things: such an all-embracing immensity cannot itself be encompassed."

It's why arguing about what Matthew or Mark or John or any of the authors of the Bible wrote, is in itself limiting God. It's claiming "I have found the end of the tracks and they come together here."

It's why both fundamentalist and rationalist are one and the same. Their God is too restrictive for the soul hungering and seeking for God.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:05 AM
 
5,140 posts, read 2,529,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
At issue is Matthew's misquoting and fabricating scripture to make passages a prophecy of Jesus.
Here's another passage alluded to by Matthew which doesn't exist.
Matthew 27:9-10 “Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, ‘And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me’ ”
There is no such passage in Jeremiah. The only reference to thirty pieces of silver is found in Zechariah 11:12-13, but this involves a wage dispute, not a betrayal.
Some apologists try to argue that Jeremiah and Zechariah's writing were in the same book and Matthew just referred to the title page. They forget that the OT writings were on scrolls, books hadn't been invented yet.
Whether using the word books or scrolls the ' sections ' of Jeremiah and Zechariah at times Jeremiah was placed first.
ALL things written....and the prophets....must be fulfilled.- Luke 24 v 44.

Even if principally paraphrased from Zechariah by Matthew it would still apply to the circumstances fulfilling it because, as a potter's filed, the land would be considered as worn out and of little value, worth only the price of a slave. 30 pieces of silver or $66 if in shekels. The 'field of blood' was previously a potter's field obtained by the priests to bury strangers.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:10 AM
 
5,140 posts, read 2,529,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:
No. They are not really specific. Perhaps you can present some that specifically describe Jesus as the messiah.
How about beginning with Jesus being a biological offspring ("of the seed of" ) both David and Solomon and sitting on the throne of Israel.
How about beginning with Genesis 3 v 15 about the promised 'seed' or offspring.

God's promise to father Abraham was that through his seed [offspring ] Isaac the promised Messiah would come.

Because of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks of years the people of the first century knew to be in 'expectation' of Messiah's arrival - Luke 3 v 15. That is why the Christian Scriptures start with the first century and Jesus proved to be the promised offspring or Messiah.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
How about beginning with Genesis 3 v 15 about the promised 'seed' or offspring.

God's promise to father Abraham was that through his seed [offspring ] Isaac the promised Messiah would come.
RESPONSE:

Gen 3:15 "They will strike…at their heel: the antecedent for “they” and “their” is the collective noun “offspring,” i.e., all the descendants of the woman. (The "seed" of the women is not a single person (ie Jesus).

The messiah had to be the biological son (seed of..., of the loins of..., etc) of both David and Solomon.

If Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph, he could not be the biological son of David and Solomon.

2 Samuel 7:12-13, 16.
When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He (Solomon)shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. .....And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.

Kingship is only transmitted through the male line (just as priesthood is). As as to the claim that Jesus was an offspring of David through Nathan, Mary was a descendant of Nathan. He was a brother of Solomon but was never a king (sat on the throne of) Israel., Thus Jesus would not fulfill the requirement to be a son of both David and Solomon and in their kingly lineage.

And, of course, we have another problem. Maleness cannot come from a woman. If Jesus' sole parent was Mary, Jesus would have been a woman!

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-04-2013 at 07:18 AM.. Reason: addition
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