U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-31-2013, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,050,235 times
Reputation: 258

Advertisements

This thread sprang logically from the recent thread on the nativity narratives.

At issue is Matthew's misquoting and fabricating scripture to make passages a prophecy of Jesus.

Here's another passage alluded to by Matthew which doesn't exist.

Matthew 27:9-10 “Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, ‘And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me’ ”

There is no such passage in Jeremiah. The only reference to thirty pieces of silver is found in Zechariah 11:12-13, but this involves a wage dispute, not a betrayal.

Some apologists try to argue that Jeremiah and Zechariah's writing were in the same book and Matthew just referred to the title page. They forget that the OT writings were on scrolls, books hadn't been invented yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-31-2013, 01:19 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,646,972 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
This thread sprang logically from the recent thread on the nativity narratives.

At issue is Matthew's misquoting and fabricating scripture to make passages a prophecy of Jesus.

Here's another passage alluded to by Matthew which doesn't exist.

Matthew 27:9-10 “Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, ‘And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me’ ”

There is no such passage in Jeremiah. The only reference to thirty pieces of silver is found in Zechariah 11:12-13, but this involves a wage dispute, not a betrayal.

Some apologists try to argue that Jeremiah and Zechariah's writing were in the same book and Matthew just referred to the title page. They forget that the OT writings were on scrolls, books hadn't been invented yet.
it could have been as simple as a copyist error.

I have read some commentaries that suggest that he was referring to Jeremiah 19--though not quoting from it directly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-31-2013, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,767 posts, read 10,862,335 times
Reputation: 16650
That's a tough one and I don't know the answer. Matthew could have been referring to Jeremiah 19 or 32 (both with prophetic implications involving 'potters and fields'); or the citation could have referred to Zechariah's prophecies regarding thirty-pieces of silver. (There are far too many similarities to the betrayal of Christ by Judas, than to blindly assert that Zechariah 11 deals only with a 'local employment issue'). Possibly Matthew is referring to an attributed spoken prophecy of Jeremiah, that doesn't appear in scripture.

I take greater issue with the dogmatic presumption that "Matthew is deliberately misquoting or fabricating (aka: manipulating) scripture to make passages a prophecy of Jesus" ... than with the passage itself. This is unwarranted -- and certainly does not support the general indictment of scripture or prophecy that seems to be inferred.

Rather, over 300 pretty specific, accurately fulfilled, Messianic prophecies in scripture carry more weight .... and justify some latitude when dealing with a single passage that cannot be readily understood. I think that the larger issue at stake here is one's overall attitude toward the Bible. In that context, it has been pretty consistently proven that folks will find whatever they are seeking and willing to see .... truth, .. or error.

Last edited by jghorton; 10-31-2013 at 01:58 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-31-2013, 01:41 PM
 
11,160 posts, read 8,567,464 times
Reputation: 28161
The word "deliberately" speaks to intent. We can't know the intent of a dead person. It would be fruitless speculation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-31-2013, 01:41 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,018,989 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
This thread sprang logically from the recent thread on the nativity narratives.

At issue is Matthew's misquoting and fabricating scripture to make passages a prophecy of Jesus.

Here's another passage alluded to by Matthew which doesn't exist.

Matthew 27:9-10 “Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, ‘And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me’ ”

There is no such passage in Jeremiah. The only reference to thirty pieces of silver is found in Zechariah 11:12-13, but this involves a wage dispute, not a betrayal.

Some apologists try to argue that Jeremiah and Zechariah's writing were in the same book and Matthew just referred to the title page. They forget that the OT writings were on scrolls, books hadn't been invented yet.
He didn't say it was written by Jeremiah. He said "spoken by Jeremiah". Obviously, to me that is, Zachariah got the same message and did write it down. Prove it isn't so.


ZECH 11:12 "And I said unto them, If you think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. ZECH 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD." Judas cast the thirty pieces of silver to the Priests in the Temple because God told him to [I doubt Judas knew it was God who put that thought in his mind] and they bought the potters field where they buried strangers.

The Bible also says that Jesus spoke and did many things Himself that were not written of. There are other Prophets who's names we know and Prophets that remain nameless who are written of in the O.T. but we do not have what they said nor their writings if any. Perhaps someday we will discover them or perhaps not. The content of what is in the Bible is what God wanted us to know.

Last edited by garya123; 10-31-2013 at 02:55 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-31-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,310 posts, read 5,505,186 times
Reputation: 4052
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
This thread sprang logically from the recent thread on the nativity narratives.

At issue is Matthew's misquoting and fabricating scripture to make passages a prophecy of Jesus.

Here's another passage alluded to by Matthew which doesn't exist.

Matthew 27:9-10 “Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, ‘And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me’ ”

There is no such passage in Jeremiah. The only reference to thirty pieces of silver is found in Zechariah 11:12-13, but this involves a wage dispute, not a betrayal.

Some apologists try to argue that Jeremiah and Zechariah's writing were in the same book and Matthew just referred to the title page. They forget that the OT writings were on scrolls, books hadn't been invented yet.
Still trying to battle the spiritual with the rational? Early Christians LOOKED for ways to express their faith--and certainly your quote is one of them. For those who are spiritually minded it has significance, for those with worldly minds it is a mistake--but a mistake that means something only to those still drawn to spiritual interpretations, and attempting to make them mesh with rational thinking. They do not.

The answer to this quote has depth on several spiritual levels, and its as easy as looking in Wikipedia to get the answers:

Quote:
In Zechariah 11:12–13, 30 pieces of silver is the price Zechariah receives for his labour. He takes the coins and throws them "to the potter". Klaas Schilder notes that Zechariah's payment indicates an assessment of his worth, as well as his dismissal. In Exodus 21:32, 30 pieces of silver was the price of a slave, so while Zechariah calls the amount a "handsome price" (Zechariah 11:13), this could be sarcasm.

Webb, however, regards it as a "considerable sum of money."

Schilder suggests that these 30 pieces of silver then get "bandied back and forth by the Spirit of Prophecy." When the chief priests decide to buy a field with the returned money, Matthew says that this fulfilled "what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet." Namely, "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me" (Matthew 27:9–10). Although many scholars see Jeremiah's name as included in error, Jeremiah's purchase of a field in Jeremiah 32 may indicate that both prophets are in mind. Craig Blomberg argues that Matthew is using typology in his quotation, rather than "any kind of single or double fulfillment of actual predictive prophecy." According to Blomberg, Matthew is telling his readers that, "like Jeremiah and Zechariah, Jesus attempts to lead his people with a prophetic and pastoral ministry, but instead he ends up suffering innocently at their hands." William Hendriksen argues that Matthew is referring to Jeremiah 19.

Blomberg also suggests that Matthew may also be saying that "Jesus' death is a ransom, the price paid to secure a slave's freedom," and that the use of the blood money to buy a burial ground for foreigners (Matthew 27:7) may hint at the idea that "Jesus' death makes salvation possible for all the peoples of the world, including the Gentiles."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Pieces_of_Silver

I hold with Blomberg's idea of typology as opposed to predictive, and the last thought above, that Jesus' death is a ransom to pay the price to secure a slave's freedom, is in fact the best. Matthew chose the words deliberately and with purpose to point toward spiritual truth of the price of a slave in Exodus 21:32, slaves released to new freedom in Jesus Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2013, 12:01 PM
 
400 posts, read 452,913 times
Reputation: 50
In The Da Vinci Code fictional character Sir Leigh Teabing says, “The Bible is a product of man . . . . Not of God. The Bible did not fall magically from the clouds. Man created it as a historical record of tumultuous times, and it has evolved through countless translations, additions, and revisions. History has never had a definitive version of the book.” (p. 231).

Matthew 27:3-10, When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

If you look into these verses with the deliberate intent of finding error, then all you will see is the so called prophet error in verse 9. However, if you look into these verses not assuming error, one moves from sophomoric glance to scholarly exegesis.

Dr. Maarten J.J. Menken professor and theologian at Tilburg School of Catholic Theology delves into these verses of Matthew in his paper entitled, The Old Testament Quotation in Matthew 27,9-10 :Textual Form And Context, vol 83 (2002) 305-328.Maarten J.J. Menken, «The Old Testament Quotation in Matthew 27,9-10: Textual Form and Context» Biblica, Vol. 83 (2002) 305-328. Maarten writes in an easy to read style and I recommend everyone read it for he goes into far greater depth than I am able on this forum.

I’m going on a side trip for a minute. You said, “Some apologists try to argue that Jeremiah and Zechariah's writing were in the same book and Matthew just referred to the title page. They forget that the OT writings were on scrolls, books hadn't been invented yet.” First, each OT scroll was believed to be about 30 feet maximum length. Longer, they became heavy and unwieldy. The scrolls were written in a grouped format. The works of the minor prophets were grouped together. Second, were these unnamed apologists you fail to document referring to books in the sense we think of them today? Barnes' Notes on the Bible sheds light on this: “Spoken by Jeremy the prophet - The words quoted here are not to be found in the prophecy of Jeremiah. Words similar to these are recorded in Zechariah 11:12-13, and from that place this quotation has been doubtless made. Much difficulty has been experienced in explaining this quotation. In ancient times, according to the Jewish writers; "Jeremiah" was reckoned the first of the prophets, and was placed first in the "Book of the Prophets," thus: Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the twelve minor prophets. Some have thought that Matthew, quoting this place, quoted the Book of the Prophets under the name of that which had the "first" place in the book, that is, Jeremiah; and though the words are those of Zechariah, yet they are quoted correctly as the words of the Book of the Prophets, the first of which was Jeremiah.”

Many have this misconception that the gospel author’s simply sat down at a desk with papyrus and quill in hand and wrote what the Holy Spirit whispered into their ears, or what came into their minds. The Gospel of Matthew was written sometime between 70 AD and 110 AD, most scholars thinking 80 AD-90 AD. Scholars agree both Matthew and Luke relied heavily on Mark’s writing. At one time scholars hypothesized there was another source, the mysterious Q and perhaps even an L and M. I’m inclined to think Matthew possessed a revised LXX. At the time Matthew wrote the Jews who did not accept Jesus as Messiah questioned those who did. One of Matthew's objectives was to show Jesus' fulfillment of prophecy.

Matthew 27:9-10 are part of Matthew’s Sondergut, plus the work of his own unique redaction or editing. Briefly, Sondergut is a German word meaning material unique to that gospel. Matthew’s Sondergut consists of 485 verses, 45.5% of the entire book. This does not mean fabrication, but instead a different and many time deeper look into Christ's life and its meaning.

Dr. Menken asserts the answer to the Jeremiah/Zechariah riddle lies in Jeremiah 32:6-15 where Jeremiah said, “The word of the LORD came to me: Hanamel son of Shallum your uncle is going to come to you and say, ‘Buy my field at Anathoth, because as nearest relative it is your right and duty to buy it.’

“Then, just as the LORD had said, my cousin Hanamel came to me in the courtyard of the guard and said, ‘Buy my field at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin. Since it is your right to redeem it and possess it, buy it for yourself.’

“I knew that this was the word of the LORD; so I bought the field at Anathoth from my cousin Hanamel and weighed out for him seventeen shekels of silver. I signed and sealed the deed, had it witnessed, and weighed out the silver on the scales. I took the deed of purchase—the sealed copy containing the terms and conditions, as well as the unsealed copy— and I gave this deed to Baruch son of Neriah, the son of Mahseiah, in the presence of my cousin Hanamel and of the witnesses who had signed the deed and of all the Jews sitting in the courtyard of the guard.

“In their presence I gave Baruch these instructions: ‘This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Take these documents, both the sealed and unsealed copies of the deed of purchase, and put them in a clay jar so they will last a long time. For this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Houses, fields and vineyards will again be bought in this land.’

Zechariah 11:11-13 states, And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Zechariah 11:11-13 and Jeremiah 32:6-15 are said to be analogous passages. Menken finds the words ‘ weighed’, and ‘silver’ connect them, but the clincher is the clause at the end of Zechariah 11:11 and Jeremiah 32:8, “knew that it was the word of the LORD” and “knew that this was the word of the LORD.” These are the only two verses in the entire Bible worded in this manner. When one considers all this the analogy becomes apparent.

Matthew connects both Zechariah and Jeremiah into his narrative. He blends the two analogous passages about money paid, a potter, and a shepherd into his narrative of Jesus being the shepherd, betrayed by money, and the money used to buy the potter’s field. All the pieces fit.

Matthew did not misquote or fabricate scripture as you suggest. It was just the opposite. Matthew merged two obviously analogous biblical passages spoken by the prophets old to confirm Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. He did so at a level that escapes the skeptic and scoffer. It is only through scholarly exegesis not sophomoric glance that one uncovers true meaning.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2013, 12:28 PM
 
11,272 posts, read 11,286,561 times
Reputation: 3474
It only proves what I and others have been asserting all along: the ORIGINAL writings may have been Holy Spirit-inspired, but what we have today is definitely NOT what the Holy Spirit transmitted to the original writers, but have been tampered with, altered, and are riddled with inconsistencies and errors. Our present-day Bible is not "inerrant" no matter how much the apologists try to whitewash its contents. But the core message that Jesus saves us is still intact and that really is all that matters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2013, 03:47 PM
 
Location: US
27,998 posts, read 15,082,761 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
it could have been as simple as a copyist error.

I have read some commentaries that suggest that he was referring to Jeremiah 19--though not quoting from it directly.

Maybe it is from the Septuagint...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2013, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,050,235 times
Reputation: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
it could have been as simple as a copyist error.

I have read some commentaries that suggest that he was referring to Jeremiah 19--though not quoting from it directly.
RESPONSE:

Matthew himself says he is quoting Jeremiah.

“Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying....

Jeremiah says nothing about 30 pieces of silver.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top