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Old 11-08-2013, 10:26 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,420,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
None of those verses give any reason to believe that they had the ability to choose God if they wanted to. It just says they didn't.
And you call yourself a pastor ... does it have to be point out that there is no verse in scripture that says people have the ability to choose, rather only that scripture teaches that people refuse.

And that's what makes the "I" in TULIP unbiblical.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:30 AM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,084,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post

Not really. It's a conclusion at which I arrived. The Bible applies to everything but it cannot specifically evaluate every last little situation to which it applies, within 2,000 pages. Theoretically, the Bible would have to be of infinite length to cover down on everything in specificity. Therefore, we are left to make certain conclusions from what the Bible says.
Your entire argument is based on the idea of free choice. If you can't back that from scripture, then you're dead in the water. Why would you persist in an idea you KNOW can't be proven from scripture? On the other hand, scripture explictly states that man's heart is evil and that none seek God.
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For this next question, I'm going to assume that you're married, or dating... or that you have at one point dated, such that you understand a dating relationship. Would you want to know everything your significant other was thinking, at every point in time? Why or why not?
Your dating analogy aside, scripture tells us that God is omniscient--meaning that he knows everything. Analogies are great--but we need to make sure they accurately represent the truth. In this case, the dating relationship doesn't.
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God might not grow bored knowing what we think but I'd bet He'd grow bored not being in true relationship with people. That is, after all, the reason why people were created.
No. Scripture says God needs nothing--not even fellowship from man. There was perfectly fellowship within the Godhead.
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Ephesians 1 - "We" means all of us. God predestined all of us to salvation in Jesus. The question becomes - who among us will accept and pursue that destiny? It's sort of like a marathon. There's a finish line. All participants can finish. But not all of them will. Some will choose to drop out and reject the victory of finishing.
Actually....the "we" means the members of the churches that the letter got circulated to. It doesn't mean every person that ever lived.

Can you make the argument that God is trying EXACTLY as hard to save the tribeman in Africa as he is the guy in the Bible Belt in a small town in Oklahoma? Or the Philistine that fought against ancient Israel? Or the Babylonian guard that was killed when he tried to throw Daniel into the fiery furnace? If not, then you MUST conclude that "we" only means a limited number of people.
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Not weird when you consider God's purpose for humans - relationship... which requires choice. God feels better when people who CAN sin choose not to sin. Again, without choice, we're naught but robots.

You just said, though, that if God wills it, he makes it happen....but wait...now you're backtracking?
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Well yeah... but what I meant was that Jesus' atonement for our sins is powerful enough to cover all people. Not all people will accept it, and therefore not all people will ultimately be covered by it, but in and of itself it lacks that limitation.

Yes--it's a given that not all will believe. And belief/faith is necessary for salvation. I'm certainly not arguing that.
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I was quoting Genesis 25:23, not Romans 9.

Nowhere in Scripture does it state that God hated Esau prior to Esau's birth. It's therefore plenty logical that God's hatred was sparked by Esau's actions.

The problem, though, is that the text doesn't say that.
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James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

By faith alone we're saved, but if we don't have good works, that's evidence that we don't have saving faith. The two must be found together for each to have meaning and substance. One without the other is empty, meaningless, and insufficient for salvation.
If you read James 2:24 in context, you'll see that the the "faith" that James was discussing was the kind of faith that even the demons have. It's the kind of faith that any person can claim to have, but it is nothing but simple belief. Even the demons believe God is there---but God isn't going to save him. James makes the point that the faith that saves is the kind of faith that actually produces works. It's real actual trust.

Just read the context.
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A baby is born and dies ten days later. How has that person earned hell?
The baby inherited sin from our ancestor, Adam. Honestly though--I will trust God in that one. It's up to God whether or not he saves that child.
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God will indeed have compassion on whomever He wishes to have compassion... and He wishes to have compassion on everyone who accepts His saving grace through Jesus Christ (otherwise it would not be true that He desires all to be saved).
I completely agree.
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He has preordained the destiny of salvation to be available to all. It is only achieved by "all who believe", through those people's personal choices to believe. It is not achieved through predestination of individuals.
There is not a single verse that you can quote in context that actually says that.
Quote:
John 3:16, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, John 8:24, Romans 10:9, Luke 13:3, John 3:36, 2 Peter 1:10, etc.

In context, not a single one of these actually says that God is just sitting up in heaven and hoping that we take him up on the offer.
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Playing with this for a while - if God predestines some to mercy, what happens to the others? (If you say "damnation", then explain how it is that God did not predestine those "others" to damnation.)
Because scripture does not tell us that God goes down the line and marks off the unbelievers, damning them. They go because they have earned hell.
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It was a partial refutation of what people tend to say about Romans 9.

How about actually quoting scripture?
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He has pre-ordained certain destinations for man - one being salvation and one being damnation.
Scripture doesn't say that.
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This part of predestination, I believe. However, the Bible does not state for certain that God has predestined any individual to heaven or hell.
Actually, yes--it clearly states that God has predestined some to heaven. Ephesians 1 and Romans 8-9.
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Good thing, too, because that would directly contradict "God is love", "God desires all to be saved", the several verses I just referenced above, etc.
No....pure love is not negated by justice. Be careful not to emphasize one trait of God over another.
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True, and I do like that analogy... I've used "mouse guts" instead of "raw liver", but it's the same thing. Sure, God knows which of those two we'd choose, and His knowledge thereof would not preclude free will. However, what if your kid chose the raw liver? Would you feed it to her? (Or would you refuse, on the grounds that it won't be healthy to eat unless it is at least cooked first?)

Again--can you actually back up your statements? There is no scripture that states that God predestines based on what we will do.

As for the raw liver part? I know my kid--I know there is no way she'd choose it. God also knows us, and he knows that given the ability, we WILL choose him.
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But they also say predestination of individuals. That precludes choice. Say, if I'm predestined to hell but I choose God, my choice is irrelevant. I'm still going to hell by their theology.


But not for individuals' destiny. He has merely created the two ends and given us the choice of which we prefer.

First of all, as I covered above, God does not predestine to hell. Second...God cannot choose to sin. Does that mean he doesn't have free will? Likewise, a man's inability to choose him doesn't mean he can't choose freely what he chooses.
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Playing with this for a while... if you believe in predestination, why do you preach? What good will it do?
As I said---I don't know who the elect are, nor do I know how the elect will come to faith. It might be through my preaching.
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You're either preaching to the future heavenly choir, people who are going to heaven by God's predestination regardless of what you (a measly human) do... or the future damned, people who are going to hell by God's predestination regardless of what you do.
And they won't be able to say they didn't hear. My preaching is like the sentence that is read to a man as he's about to be locked up.
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If you kept your mouth shut, the predestination would be the same. If you work yourself to the point where your voice is shot, your hands are blue, and you go gray 30 years early, in the name of trying to save the lost... what's the point, if you can effect no change in people's eternal destinies anyway? Even if you want to take the stance of "it's my job to introduce them to the Gospel, but it's the Holy Spirit's job to bring them to Christ"... still part of it is your job. Why waste the effort and energy if you can do absolutely nothing to change people's eternal destiny for the better because God has already predestined people?

Jesus commanded us to go forth and preach the Gospel, making disciples. That's why I do it --because he uses men to do his work.
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But if you take the stance that people can do nothing of their own volition to come to God, they haven't earned anything... they've merely played the hand they were dealt. That's like telling a losing poker player, who lost because he constantly got crappy cards dealt to him, that it was 100% his fault. Any poker player will tell you that there is an element of "luck of the draw" in the game and therefore if you lose it's not 100% your fault.
Except that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US have willfully chosen to disobey God and sin against him. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US are guilty of offending God and deserve hell.
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They don't always affect you, or me, or other good Christians by "living it up". Often they do, but usually they don't. Right now there are probably millions of people getting totally drunk, stoned, high, etc. in their homes. There are probably millions of people who, by the end of the night tonight, will have had sex with someone to whom they are not married. Police will probably arrest at least thousands of people tonight for committing crimes. Yet, the chances that any of this will directly affect you or me are infinitesimal. We'll wake up tomorrow morning, if we're not victims of the crime perpetrated by one of the thousands who will be arrested tonight, and our morning will be just the same as it would have been if none of the aforementioned people committed any of the aforementioned sins. Using the law of averages, yes, we get affected... but it takes huge numbers of people committing egregious sins regularly to have much affect on those of us who aren't actively sinning in that manner.
Yup. You're right. But those people are affecting other people that did not bring those problems upon themselves. If you want to live an immoral life, so be it. You have the choice to do so as long as it doesn't affect me--at least within the laws of our country.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:32 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,420,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
The text doesn't say that. You need to read what's there, not what you want to believe.
It's no wonder why you asked "how does one remain in Christ" ... please save your don't tell me about reading what's there, not what you want to believe rhetoric
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:51 AM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,084,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And you call yourself a pastor ... does it have to be point out that there is no verse in scripture that says people have the ability to choose, rather only that scripture teaches that people refuse.

And that's what makes the "I" in TULIP unbiblical.
I'm asking you to actually back up your statements from scripture. We see throughout scripture that people believe in Christ and get saved. We also see comments from Jesus where he specifically says that God GIVES people to him (John 10:27-29).

I will back up everything I saw regarding predestination/election from scripture. Can you do the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It's no wonder why you asked "how does one remain in Christ" ... please save your don't tell me about reading what's there, not what you want to believe rhetoric
I'm sorry, perhaps I asked that as a leading question, but can you point me to the post where I asked that?
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,420,199 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I'm asking you to actually back up your statements from scripture. We see throughout scripture that people believe in Christ and get saved. We also see comments from Jesus where he specifically says that God GIVES people to him (John 10:27-29).

I will back up everything I saw regarding predestination/election from scripture. Can you do the same?
Ditto ... so do I.


What I've been countering is the unbiblical teaching of Calvinism's "I" and "P" of TULIP
  • "I" = irresistible grace
  • "P"= perseverance of the saints
which has been intertwined in this OP

Originally Posted by twin.spin
It's no wonder why you asked "how does one remain in Christ" ... please save your don't tell me about reading what's there, not what you want to believe rhetoric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I'm sorry, perhaps I asked that as a leading question, but can you point me to the post where I asked that?
I had to look it up, and the exact verbiage in the initial question had "what" instead of "how" .... but your follow up questions conveyed the "how"

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l#post30891353 post #98
"Please elaborate--don't use vague descriptions. Define it for me. What does "remain in him" mean? Does that mean I can see rate R movies? Can I dance? Can I drink? Does a person lose their salvation by premarital sex? Or illicit drug use?"
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:10 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,084,424 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Ditto ... so do I.


What I've been countering is the unbiblical teaching of Calvinism's "I" and "P" of TULIP
  • "I" = irresistible grace
  • "P"= perseverance of the saints
which has been intertwined in this OP

Originally Posted by twin.spin
It's no wonder why you asked "how does one remain in Christ" ... please save your don't tell me about reading what's there, not what you want to believe rhetoric


I had to look it up, and the exact verbiage in the initial question had "what" instead of "how" .... but your follow up questions conveyed the "how"

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l#post30891353 post #98
"Please elaborate--don't use vague descriptions. Define it for me. What does "remain in him" mean? Does that mean I can see rate R movies? Can I dance? Can I drink? Does a person lose their salvation by premarital sex? Or illicit drug use?"

ahh...now I remember that. The Bible teaches that if we are saved...we are saved. We are in Christ, and we cannot be lost by him.

If you teach that we can leave Christ, or lose our salvation by something we do...tell me how exactly that happens. How do you define "remain in him"? How do we "leave him"? Is it our behavior? Or is it losing faith? How exactly does that happen, in your view?
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:31 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,892 posts, read 26,112,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintMePurple View Post
None of you are qualified to discuss the Elect until you identify the Elect.

Who is the Elect?
From post #19, originally addressed to the OP.

As for election, That refers to being chosen, and it applies to both Israel and the church, as well as to Christ.

1.) Jesus' election: Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-21.

2.) Israel's election: Deut. 7:6 and 14:2; Isa. 41:8-9 and 45:4; Rom. 11:1-2.

You made reference to God hating Esau and loving Jacob. This is mentioned in Malachi 1:2-3 and quoted by Paul in Romans 9:13.
Malachi 1:2 ''I have loved you,'' says the LORD. But you say, ''How have you loved us?'' ''Was not Esau Jacob's brother?'' declares the LORD. ''Yet I have loved Jacob; 3] but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.''
This is related to God's election of Israel. God was simply referring to His sovereign choice that the nation Israel would come through Jacob rather than Esau.

3.) The church's election: Eph. 1:3-4; Col. 3:12.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:37 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,051,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
ahh...now I remember that. The Bible teaches that if we are saved...we are saved. We are in Christ, and we cannot be lost by him.

If you teach that we can leave Christ, or lose our salvation by something we do...tell me how exactly that happens. How do you define "remain in him"? How do we "leave him"? Is it our behavior? Or is it losing faith? How exactly does that happen, in your view?
You're sounding like a universalist . If you no longer live by faith what then ?. Have you considered the faithfulness of God to never give up on you ?.

Can a woman forget her nursing child
And have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget, but I will not forget you.
Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
Your walls are continually before Me.

OSAS ?. No at all.............God is my Salvation.
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:08 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,084,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
You're sounding like a universalist . If you no longer live by faith what then ?. Have you considered the faithfulness of God to never give up on you ?.

Can a woman forget her nursing child
And have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget, but I will not forget you.
Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
Your walls are continually before Me.

OSAS ?. No at all.............God is my Salvation.
No. Romans 8-9 state that election is a reality. God does predestine and elect some.

Yet..in the next chapter Paul states that faith is required. The question is how we come to call upon God?
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:16 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,051,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No. Romans 8-9 state that election is a reality. God does predestine and elect some.

Yet..in the next chapter Paul states that faith is required. The question is how we come to call upon God?
The how is,Salvation comes to us. Ask Zacchaeus
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