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Again, Jesus said it, not me. Don't shoot the messager.
He did not say: "I don't know you anymore"
He said: "Inever knew you"
And again: "1 John 2:19 They left us, but they were never really with us. If they had been, they would have stuck it out with us, loyal to the end. In leaving, they showed their true colors, showed they never did belong.
So how do you identify those who are of you ?. If you say fruit, are you saying love, joy and peace and so forth, and if you identify this as being how you determine those who are of you, shouldn't you have noticed the lack of the fruit of the spirit in those you have judged not bring of you in the first place while they were with you ?. John who wrote the verse you're quoting said everyone that loves is born of God.
Well that will go back to, how does one really know they are saved.
We teach Romans 10:9-11, if you confess with your mouth and belive in your heart Jesus is Lord you shall be saved, but the bible also says certain types of lifestyles you live will cause you not to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If you decided to go back to your old ways and stay that way and die in your sins unrepentant, you chose your own free will and cant get mad when Jesus says you that practice lawlessness. Heb 10 confirms this about abusing grace.
Its like when a Christian truly believed Rom 10:9-11 at one point in their life and were saved and becomes an atheist in the end, we can never say they were not saved as they were since they believed Rom 10, but just walked away from God in the end and never came back.
Many Atheist were former Christians and joke the quickest way to make an Atheist is to have them read the bible.
Actually, in context, what Jesus called 'practicing lawlessness' in Matthew 7:23 were things done by those who on the day of judgment will prove to have been false followers of Jesus. The lawless deeds mentioned are prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons in His name, and performing many miracles in His name (Matthew 7:22). All these things are said to be done in His name, and yet Jesus calls them 'lawlessness' because these things were being done by those who Jesus said He had never known. The reason being that Jesus had never had a personal relationship with them because they had never trusted Him for eternal salvation.
Judas Iscariot is a good example. He was one of Jesus' disciples, but had never been born again through faith in Jesus. Yet he was able to do those things which Jesus called lawless deeds in Matthew 7:22-23. Judas Iscariot had never been a believer as Jesus Himself said in John 13 during the Lord's supper just before He was arrested. When Jesus began washing the disciples feet and Peter objected, He told Peter that if He did not wash his feet then he (Peter) had no part with Him. The washing of Peter's feet represented a spiritual washing which referred to a believer being restored to fellowship through confession of sin as per the principle of 1 John 1:9. The issue in foot washing was not one of eternal salvation for eternal salvation was represented by having been bathed (John 13:10). Jesus said that ''He who has bathed (been born again through faith in Christ Jesus) needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.'' (John 13:10). Jesus was referring to the fact that with the exception of Judas Iscariot, all of the disciples were clean - that they had been born again. Verse 11 continues, ''For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, ''Not all of you are clean.'' Judas Iscariot, even though one of Jesus' disciples had never been spiritually bathed. He had never been born again. Yet he was able to perform miracles in Jesus' name. But on the day of judgment Judas Iscariot will be among those to whom Jesus will say, ''I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.''
To make the point clear, in Jesus' illustration, having been bathed represented the believer's eternal relationship with Him, while the washing of the feet represented the believer's temporal fellowship with Him. Having been eternally saved through faith in Christ, the believer's abiding in Christ or fellowship with God in time depends on acknowledging his sins as per 1 John 1:9.
In Matthew 7:21 Jesus said, ''Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
So what is the will of the Father which must be done in order to enter the kingdom of heaven? John 6:40 tells us. ''For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes on Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''
The will of the Father for the unbeliever is to believe on Christ. And this results in eternal salvation. John 6:40 simply repeats and reinforces what was said earlier. In John 6:28-29 Jesus was asked by the crowd what the works of the Father were that by doing them eternal life could be obtained. But Jesus corrected the false assumption that eternal life could be earned by works. He told the crowd that the singular work was to simply believe on Him.
Jesus told them that it was not by any meritorious works on their part that they could be saved, but that eternal life resulted from the singular non-meritorious work of relying on Him for eternal life.
And Paul stated the same thing in Ephesians 2:8-9.
For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
As for Hebrews 10:26-31 to which you refer, that concerns the faithless believer which I don't want to discuss in this thread about works. The issue of the faithless believer will be addressed in a different thread.
So how do you identify those who are of you ?. If you say fruit, are you saying love, joy and peace and so forth, and if you identify this as being how you determine those who are of you, shouldn't you have noticed the lack of the fruit of the spirit in those you have judged not bring of you in the first place while they were with you ?. John who wrote the verse you're quoting said everyone that loves is born of God.
I don't fee the urge to identify them, which is why I said (twice), that I leave that judgment to God. Perhaps you should do the same.
Again, Jesus said it, not me. Don't shoot the messager.
He did not say: "I don't know you anymore"
He said: "Inever knew you"
And again: "1 John 2:19 They left us, but they were never really with us. If they had been, they would have stuck it out with us, loyal to the end. In leaving, they showed their true colors, showed they never did belong.
The focus of 1 John 2:19 is about these people: "the antichrist [singular] is coming, even now many antichrists[plural] have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18
Factually speaking, this again is either the unintentional or the wanton misapplication of God's Word by OSAS supporters. The "antichrist who is coming \ now many antichrists have come" is not the same category of people as the person who believes then doesn't remain faithful as Jesus speaks of and also found in other scriptures.
The focus of 1 John 2:19 is about these people: "the antichrist [singular] is coming, even now many antichrists[plural] have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18
Factually speaking, this again is either the unintentional or the wanton misapplication of God's Word by OSAS supporters. The "antichrist who is coming \ now many antichrists have come" is not the same category of people as the person who believes then doesn't remain faithful as Jesus speaks of and also found in other scriptures.
The text is clear. It talks about those who were around, but are not around anymore, because they were never true members. Not everyone who says he is a born again Christian actually is, just like not every Jew is a true descendant of Abraham. Some were sons of the devil.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 11-07-2013 at 11:12 AM..
To those who maybe swayed by this false teaching... the Bible does teach that the believer can lose or walk away from his salvation.
"Maintaining" is not the same as "remaining".
Scripture teaches that God maintains us in the faith.
2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
But Scripture also teaches we can lose it, thus the warnings to not listen to false teachers and remain faithful to the very end.
Hebrews 6:4-8, 11 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.
To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned....
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
John 15:5-6
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Hebrews 6 and John 15 were not spoken\written to unbelievers, which "never were saved" actually are.
Rather these words of warnings are spoken to believers for good reason ... because:
in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.... Hebrews 6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." ... John 15
Claiming otherwise is to oppose what Jesus specifically said, which is then offering an alternative gospel message to those who on their own reject the truth.
No, the Bible does not teach that the believer can lose or walk away from his salvation.
Both John 15:5-6 and Hebrews 6:4-8 were addressed by me in my other thread on the believer's eternal security - The Doctrine of Eternal Security
Hebrews 6:4-6 in posts #9, #94, and #141
John 15:6 in post #16
And you know that because you were on that thread.
I don't fee the urge to identify them, which is why I said (twice), that I leave that judgment to God. Perhaps you should do the same.
But you're not leaving it to God to judge,you actually believe there are some among us, who are not of us in the first place. I'm not trying to make any judgement other than trying to understand what you and Vizio mean when you claim they were never of you in the in the first place.
OSAS is man made doctrine, created for those who do not know how to effectively live by faith in the grace of God.
But you're not leaving it to God to judge,you actually believe there are some among us, who are not of us in the first place. I'm not trying to make any judgement other than trying to understand what you and Vizio mean when you claim they were never of you in the in the first place.
Yes, I am leaving it to God. Jesus (not me) said He never knew the people behind the door.
Yes, I am leaving it to God. Jesus (not me) said He never knew the people behind the door.
Oh, well if you say so, then it must be so.
Enjoy your day.
He never said they were not saved or never of them in the first place, but he did say this.......Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
Luke 9:49-50
He never said they were not saved or never of them in the first place, but he did say this.......Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
Luke 9:49-50
Maybe John forgot Jesus said this to him.
I don't see any contradiction.
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