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Old 11-06-2013, 08:50 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Contrary to what many think, the Bible does not teach that the believer can lose or walk away from his salvation. If you as a believer in Jesus Christ could lose your salvation it would be for the following reasons.
1.) Lack of works.
2.) Sin.
3.) Loss of faith or faithlessness.

But none of these are factors in maintaining our salvation. Since we did not do anything to earn our salvation we cannot do anything to maintain our salvation. Our salvation is maintained by God; not by us.

Let's look at each of these three reasons which are erroneously given as reasons for being able to lose or walk away from your salvation. Since with the completion of the section on works this post is getting a bit lengthy, I decided to cover the issues of sin and of the loss of faith in a different thread which I will get to perhaps tomorrow. This thread then is Part one of at least one more thread.

1.) Lack of works: The Bible states quite plainly that we are not saved on the basis of meritorious works on our part. Both Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 11:6 demonstrate this truth.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no man can boast. 10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8 starts off by saying that we are 'saved by grace'. Romans 11:6 shows us what 'by grace' means.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Therefore, when Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not as a result of works, it is seen that meritorious works on our part can have nothing to do with earning or maintaining our salvation. Both grace and faith are antithetical to works regarding our justification by which we are saved or delivered from the penalty of sin which occurs that the moment we first place our faith in Christ for salvation. If meritorious works on our part intrude on grace, then our salvation would not be by grace, and it would not be through faith. The good works in which we as believers are to walk have to do not with phase one justification which secures our eternal salvation, but have to do with our Christian walk in our spiritual life after already having been eternally saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

The apostle Paul explains that Abraham was justified in terms of eternal salvation, not on the basis of works, but on the basis that he believed the promise of God.
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Remember Ephesians 2:9? - ''not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.''

Paul then continues in Romans 4:3.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? ''Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.''
The reference is to Genesis 15:6.
Genesis 15:6 Then he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 was many years before Isaac was born, and many more years before Abraham's test when God told him to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis chapter 22 which was for the purpose of validating the doctrine that was in his soul - all that he had learned, all that God had taught him. His willingness to sacrifice Isaac based on his confidence that God would restore Isaac to him (See Hebrews 11:17-19) completed or perfected Abraham's faith.

But even Genesis 15:6 does not actually pinpoint the time of Abram's salvation which took place years before when he left the land of Ur. Genesis 15:6 is therefore a parenthetical statement.

Paul continues in Romans 4:4.
Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
When Jesus was asked by the crowd what works (notice that it plural) must be done to do the works of God so that they could obtain eternal life, Jesus replied that there was but one work of God, one non-meritorious work which must be done. And that was to believe on Him.
John 6:27 ''Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.'' 28] Therefore they said to Him, ''What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?'' 29] Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He has sent.''
The people in the crowd understood that Jesus was telling them that there was something they must do if they were to have eternal life. And they would do it if Jesus would tell them what it was that they must do. But they were thinking in terms of works and wanted to know what those works were by which they could work for eternal life. But Jesus' reply to them was not that they must do good works in order to earn eternal life, but must simply believe on Him. God requires that we recognize our total inability to save ourselves by our own efforts, and simply receive the free gift of eternal life which is received by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This should be sufficient to show that justification with regard to salvation or deliverance from the penalty of sin which results in an eternal relationship with God is not by works or by a combination of faith plus works. Works are the believer's spiritual production. Works are not the means of earning eternal life. Lack of works means a non-productive or dead faith. Not a non-existent faith.

Nor, contrary to the claims of the Lordship salvation crowd, does a lack of works prove that you were never saved in the first place. It is possible for a believer to get out of fellowship because of sin and remain out of fellowship his entire Christian life because he never acknowledges his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 which means that he is incapable of producing any works which are acceptable to God. He is eternally saved, but has no works which will be evaluated as being 'gold, silver or precious stones' acceptable to God at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10). The same applies to those who lose their faith. And in both cases, they may produce humanly good works, but such works are not acceptable to God. Furthermore, an unbeliever who has never accepted Christ as Savior is fully capable of producing humanly good works, but which simply are not acceptable to God.

But again, the issue of sin, as well as the issue of loss of faith will be addressed in part Two which will be a different thread.

I fully realize that many people will simply disregard everything that was written above. But I made the effort for those who have ears to hear.

I should also point out, since accusations are made on threads of this nature, that I am not advocating not having works, or being spiritually lazy, and I am not advocating sinning. I am stating, and showing with Scripture that the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith and not by works, and that the believer's salvation is eternally secure.

Last edited by Mike555; 11-06-2013 at 09:40 PM..
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:27 PM
 
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So Mike, if you all of all people, someone that the entire forum knows is saved, decides to become a Atheist tomorrow and you denounce God and go and teach the world you want nothing to do with God and they shouldn't either because he is not real and never was and you cause many to stumble and you die unrepentant in you new atheist faith 5-10 yrs later, do you seriously think you will go to heaven???

You on your own free will walked away from God and wanted nothing to do with him, but you think God will give you eternal life because you once at some point in your life believed in Jesus, but walked away on your own free will from him.
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:34 PM
 
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Yes Salvation is a free gift from God and no amount of good works can save your soul since we are saved by grace through faith, but you cannot follow God then turn your back on him and go back to living in sin and die in your sins unrepentant and think you will go to heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’




Revelation 3:15-16

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[a] I will vomit you out of My mouth.





There is a big difference between TRYING to live holy and slip up on the way and not trying at all and living a sinful lifestyle and fully being in the world even after you are saved.

Getting saved is just the beginning, but you still have a life to live after you get saved.
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:45 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
So Mike, if you all of all people, someone that the entire forum knows is saved, decides to become a Atheist tomorrow and you denounce God and go and teach the world you want nothing to do with God and they shouldn't either because he is not real and never was and you cause many to stumble and you die unrepentant in you new atheist faith 5-10 yrs later, do you seriously think you will go to heaven???

You on your own free will walked away from God and wanted nothing to do with him, but you think God will give you eternal life because you once at some point in your life believed in Jesus, but walked away on your own free will from him.
As I said, I will address the issue of loss of faith in part two, or possibly part three of this topic which will be in a different thread. I will not address it here. The same applies to the sin issue. Part one of this topic is dealing only with the issue of works.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:30 PM
 
Location: california
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Default Jesus disagrees with this statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Contrary to what many think, the Bible does not teach that the believer can lose or walk away from his salvation. If you as a believer in Jesus Christ could lose your salvation it would be for the following reasons.
1.) Lack of works.
2.) Sin.
3.) Loss of faith or faithlessness.

But none of these are factors in maintaining our salvation. Since we did not do anything to earn our salvation we cannot do anything to maintain our salvation. Our salvation is maintained by God; not by us.

Let's look at each of these three reasons which are erroneously given as reasons for being able to lose or walk away from your salvation. Since with the completion of the section on works this post is getting a bit lengthy, I decided to cover the issues of sin and of the loss of faith in a different thread which I will get to perhaps tomorrow. This thread then is Part one of at least one more thread.

1.) Lack of works: The Bible states quite plainly that we are not saved on the basis of meritorious works on our part. Both Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 11:6 demonstrate this truth.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no man can boast. 10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8 starts off by saying that we are 'saved by grace'. Romans 11:6 shows us what 'by grace' means.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Therefore, when Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not as a result of works, it is seen that meritorious works on our part can have nothing to do with earning or maintaining our salvation. Both grace and faith are antithetical to works regarding our justification by which we are saved or delivered from the penalty of sin which occurs that the moment we first place our faith in Christ for salvation. If meritorious works on our part intrude on grace, then our salvation would not be by grace, and it would not be through faith. The good works in which we as believers are to walk have to do not with phase one justification which secures our eternal salvation, but have to do with our Christian walk in our spiritual life after already having been eternally saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

The apostle Paul explains that Abraham was justified in terms of eternal salvation, not on the basis of works, but on the basis that he believed the promise of God.
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Remember Ephesians 2:9? - ''not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.''

Paul then continues in Romans 4:3.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? ''Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.''
The reference is to Genesis 15:6.
Genesis 15:6 Then he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 was many years before Isaac was born, and many more years before Abraham's test when God told him to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis chapter 22 which was for the purpose of validating the doctrine that was in his soul - all that he had learned, all that God had taught him. His willingness to sacrifice Isaac based on his confidence that God would restore Isaac to him (See Hebrews 11:17-19) completed or perfected Abraham's faith.

But even Genesis 15:6 does not actually pinpoint the time of Abram's salvation which took place years before when he left the land of Ur. Genesis 15:6 is therefore a parenthetical statement.

Paul continues in Romans 4:4.
Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
When Jesus was asked by the crowd what works (notice that it plural) must be done to do the works of God so that they could obtain eternal life, Jesus replied that there was but one work of God, one non-meritorious work which must be done. And that was to believe on Him.
John 6:27 ''Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.'' 28] Therefore they said to Him, ''What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?'' 29] Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He has sent.''
The people in the crowd understood that Jesus was telling them that there was something they must do if they were to have eternal life. And they would do it if Jesus would tell them what it was that they must do. But they were thinking in terms of works and wanted to know what those works were by which they could work for eternal life. But Jesus' reply to them was not that they must do good works in order to earn eternal life, but must simply believe on Him. God requires that we recognize our total inability to save ourselves by our own efforts, and simply receive the free gift of eternal life which is received by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This should be sufficient to show that justification with regard to salvation or deliverance from the penalty of sin which results in an eternal relationship with God is not by works or by a combination of faith plus works. Works are the believer's spiritual production. Works are not the means of earning eternal life. Lack of works means a non-productive or dead faith. Not a non-existent faith.

Nor, contrary to the claims of the Lordship salvation crowd, does a lack of works prove that you were never saved in the first place. It is possible for a believer to get out of fellowship because of sin and remain out of fellowship his entire Christian life because he never acknowledges his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 which means that he is incapable of producing any works which are acceptable to God. He is eternally saved, but has no works which will be evaluated as being 'gold, silver or precious stones' acceptable to God at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10). The same applies to those who lose their faith. And in both cases, they may produce humanly good works, but such works are not acceptable to God. Furthermore, an unbeliever who has never accepted Christ as Savior is fully capable of producing humanly good works, but which simply are not acceptable to God.

But again, the issue of sin, as well as the issue of loss of faith will be addressed in part Two which will be a different thread.

I fully realize that many people will simply disregard everything that was written above. But I made the effort for those who have ears to hear.

I should also point out, since accusations are made on threads of this nature, that I am not advocating not having works, or being spiritually lazy, and I am not advocating sinning. I am stating, and showing with Scripture that the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith and not by works, and that the believer's salvation is eternally secure.
One must turn from self government to God government. Matthew,7; and John 15;
Initiating a step in faith is not a walk in faith.
Be there fore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect, " Is an active statement, not a passive one.
Jesus teachings are not all metaphoric , and abusing that idea does not win points with Him either.
If you have read the things Jesus taught with the idea of being obedient and not looking for excuses the light can come on.
Paul is NOT God's word.
Jesus IS God's word .
Jesus did not teach grace , not once, not ever.
God does not compromise with sin . Which grace implies.
Repentance must come first.
If Jesus is only being included in one's life there is no relationship; God does not compromise with sin.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach the things Jesus taught in His place The gospel was to reveal this good news. Repentance and forgiveness providing a real relationship to the end that one could be obedient to God and enjoy His blessing and friendship and a future together eventually in His home.
Jesus told of a man the received forgiveness, and did not forgive others . did you ever read that? I suppose not.
The man's forgiveness was revoked.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:07 AM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
One must turn from self government to God government. Matthew,7; and John 15;
Initiating a step in faith is not a walk in faith.
Be there fore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect, " Is an active statement, not a passive one.
Jesus teachings are not all metaphoric , and abusing that idea does not win points with Him either.
If you have read the things Jesus taught with the idea of being obedient and not looking for excuses the light can come on.
Paul is NOT God's word.
Jesus IS God's word .
Jesus did not teach grace , not once, not ever.
God does not compromise with sin . Which grace implies.
Repentance must come first.
If Jesus is only being included in one's life there is no relationship; God does not compromise with sin.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach the things Jesus taught in His place The gospel was to reveal this good news. Repentance and forgiveness providing a real relationship to the end that one could be obedient to God and enjoy His blessing and friendship and a future together eventually in His home.
Jesus told of a man the received forgiveness, and did not forgive others . did you ever read that? I suppose not.
The man's forgiveness was revoked.
I had started to include something in the OP about the anti-Pauline crowd and their dismissal of anything that Paul says, but then decided not to unless the issue came up as it has here. The apostles, including Paul were Jesus' representatives and what they spoke and recorded in writing is just as much the word of God as anything that Jesus said during His time on this earth. Paul said regarding his own message,
For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy; one need not be an apostle to communicate God's word, but Paul was an apostle), you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. 1 Thessalonians 2:13
Your issues with Paul are a problem you will have to deal with. But to dismiss him is to dismiss a major part of the NT Scriptures and is an attack on the word of God. Concerning Paul, God the Holy Spirit said,
Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul (Paul) for the work to which I have called them.'' Acts 13:2
The Holy Spirit did not make a mistake in calling Paul. Now, having said that, the topic of this thread is not about whether Paul's writings can be trusted.

And in titling your post, 'Jesus disagrees with this statement,' with reference to my entire OP, you are also saying that Jesus disagrees with His own statement in John 6:27-29.

You say that Jesus never taught grace. But while He didn't use the word 'grace', He certainly taught it. One example was already given in the OP, when in John 6:27-29 Jesus said it was not by works, but by simply believing on Him that one had eternal life. Now He did call believing on Him a work in the singular sense. But it is a non-meritorious work for which one can not take credit. And this agrees with Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Jesus also taught grace with the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32).

And lest it escapes anyone's attention, the very fact that Jesus was willing to go to the Cross and bear the sins of the world in His own body and pay the penalty that was due us, is the very epitome of grace.

And once again, I will address the sin issue in part two of this subject which will be on another thread.

Last edited by Mike555; 11-07-2013 at 02:08 AM..
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,729,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Contrary to what many think, the Bible does not teach that the believer can lose or walk away from his salvation. If you as a believer in Jesus Christ could lose your salvation it would be for the following reasons.
1.) Lack of works.
2.) Sin.
3.) Loss of faith or faithlessness.

But none of these are factors in maintaining our salvation. Since we did not do anything to earn our salvation we cannot do anything to maintain our salvation. Our salvation is maintained by God; not by us.

Let's look at each of these three reasons which are erroneously given as reasons for being able to lose or walk away from your salvation. Since with the completion of the section on works this post is getting a bit lengthy, I decided to cover the issues of sin and of the loss of faith in a different thread which I will get to perhaps tomorrow. This thread then is Part one of at least one more thread.

1.) Lack of works: The Bible states quite plainly that we are not saved on the basis of meritorious works on our part. Both Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 11:6 demonstrate this truth.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no man can boast. 10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8 starts off by saying that we are 'saved by grace'. Romans 11:6 shows us what 'by grace' means.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Therefore, when Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not as a result of works, it is seen that meritorious works on our part can have nothing to do with earning or maintaining our salvation. Both grace and faith are antithetical to works regarding our justification by which we are saved or delivered from the penalty of sin which occurs that the moment we first place our faith in Christ for salvation. If meritorious works on our part intrude on grace, then our salvation would not be by grace, and it would not be through faith. The good works in which we as believers are to walk have to do not with phase one justification which secures our eternal salvation, but have to do with our Christian walk in our spiritual life after already having been eternally saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

The apostle Paul explains that Abraham was justified in terms of eternal salvation, not on the basis of works, but on the basis that he believed the promise of God.
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Remember Ephesians 2:9? - ''not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.''

Paul then continues in Romans 4:3.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? ''Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.''
The reference is to Genesis 15:6.
Genesis 15:6 Then he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 was many years before Isaac was born, and many more years before Abraham's test when God told him to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis chapter 22 which was for the purpose of validating the doctrine that was in his soul - all that he had learned, all that God had taught him. His willingness to sacrifice Isaac based on his confidence that God would restore Isaac to him (See Hebrews 11:17-19) completed or perfected Abraham's faith.

But even Genesis 15:6 does not actually pinpoint the time of Abram's salvation which took place years before when he left the land of Ur. Genesis 15:6 is therefore a parenthetical statement.

Paul continues in Romans 4:4.
Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
When Jesus was asked by the crowd what works (notice that it plural) must be done to do the works of God so that they could obtain eternal life, Jesus replied that there was but one work of God, one non-meritorious work which must be done. And that was to believe on Him.
John 6:27 ''Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.'' 28] Therefore they said to Him, ''What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?'' 29] Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He has sent.''
The people in the crowd understood that Jesus was telling them that there was something they must do if they were to have eternal life. And they would do it if Jesus would tell them what it was that they must do. But they were thinking in terms of works and wanted to know what those works were by which they could work for eternal life. But Jesus' reply to them was not that they must do good works in order to earn eternal life, but must simply believe on Him. God requires that we recognize our total inability to save ourselves by our own efforts, and simply receive the free gift of eternal life which is received by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This should be sufficient to show that justification with regard to salvation or deliverance from the penalty of sin which results in an eternal relationship with God is not by works or by a combination of faith plus works. Works are the believer's spiritual production. Works are not the means of earning eternal life. Lack of works means a non-productive or dead faith. Not a non-existent faith.

Nor, contrary to the claims of the Lordship salvation crowd, does a lack of works prove that you were never saved in the first place. It is possible for a believer to get out of fellowship because of sin and remain out of fellowship his entire Christian life because he never acknowledges his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 which means that he is incapable of producing any works which are acceptable to God. He is eternally saved, but has no works which will be evaluated as being 'gold, silver or precious stones' acceptable to God at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10). The same applies to those who lose their faith. And in both cases, they may produce humanly good works, but such works are not acceptable to God. Furthermore, an unbeliever who has never accepted Christ as Savior is fully capable of producing humanly good works, but which simply are not acceptable to God.

But again, the issue of sin, as well as the issue of loss of faith will be addressed in part Two which will be a different thread.

I fully realize that many people will simply disregard everything that was written above. But I made the effort for those who have ears to hear.

I should also point out, since accusations are made on threads of this nature, that I am not advocating not having works, or being spiritually lazy, and I am not advocating sinning. I am stating, and showing with Scripture that the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith and not by works, and that the believer's salvation is eternally secure.
Sigh. Why is it that every time one of these arguments comes up, the words of Jesus Himself, as recorded in Matthew 25 are ignored?

Speaking from memory: When I was hungry you did NOT feed ME. When I was naked you did NOT clothe me. Whenever I was homeless you did NOT shelter me! When oh Lord did we fail to do those things? protested the damned. Whatever you do to these, the least of My brethren, you do to ME!!!!!

So now you reject the entire noble pagan doctrine (which led to the theology of Limbo)? Where did good people go prior to redemption by the sacrifice of Jesus?

Which is one reason why I outright reject so many rationalizations based upon the hither and yon theologies of men, and choose to listen to God and Jesus directly.
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:20 AM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Sigh. Why is it that every time one of these arguments comes up, the words of Jesus Himself, as recorded in Matthew 25 are ignored?

Speaking from memory: When I was hungry you did NOT feed ME. When I was naked you did NOT clothe me. Whenever I was homeless you did NOT shelter me! When oh Lord did we fail to do those things? protested the damned. Whatever you do to these, the least of My brethren, you do to ME!!!!!

So now you reject the entire noble pagan doctrine (which led to the theology of Limbo)? Where did good people go prior to redemption by the sacrifice of Jesus?

Which is one reason why I outright reject so many rationalizations based upon the hither and yon theologies of men, and choose to listen to God and Jesus directly.
With your reference to Matthew 25 you are referring to the judgment of the nations which will take place in the valley of Jehoshaphat according to Joel 3:2 after the Tribulation and before the Millennial kingdom is set up, and in which Gentile believers and unbelievers will be judged based on their treatment of the Jews during the Tribulation. During the Tribulation, because of the increase in lawlessness the love of most people will grow cold as stated in Matthew 24:12. During the Tribulation Gentile believers will be characterized by their willingness to help the Jews, while Gentile unbelievers will be characterized by their unwillingness to help the Jews. All unbelievers, whether at the judgment of the nations after the Tribulation, or at the great white throne judgment a thousand years later, will be condemned on the basis of their works. But they are unbelievers. No believer will ever be condemned to the lake of fire because of his works or lack thereof.

You ask where good people went (when they died) prior to the sacrifice of Jesus. If by 'good' you are referring to those who believed God's promise of the coming Messiah and were therefore credited with God's righteousness (See Romans 4:3), they went to 'Abraham's Bosom' which Jesus referred to as 'Paradise' in Luke 23:43, and which was one of the compartments of Hades. Sheol in the Old Testament. And for those of you who disagree that Paradise was one of the compartments of Hades prior to Jesus' resurrection and ascension, that is not really the topic of this thread. I simply answered a question. I do not intend to debate that issue on this thread.

Everything I have said has been backed up with Scripture and is not the ''rationalizations based upon the hither and yon theologies of men'' as you call it. But as I also said in the OP, ''I fully realize that many people will simply disregard everything that was written above. But I made the effort for those who have ears to hear.''
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:32 AM
 
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What then do we make of Luke 9:62?
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:13 AM
 
Location: Clanton, AL
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Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
One must turn from self government to God government. Matthew,7; and John 15;
Initiating a step in faith is not a walk in faith.
Be there fore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect, " Is an active statement, not a passive one.
Jesus teachings are not all metaphoric , and abusing that idea does not win points with Him either.
If you have read the things Jesus taught with the idea of being obedient and not looking for excuses the light can come on.
Paul is NOT God's word.
Jesus IS God's word .
Jesus did not teach grace , not once, not ever.
God does not compromise with sin . Which grace implies.
Repentance must come first.
If Jesus is only being included in one's life there is no relationship; God does not compromise with sin.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach the things Jesus taught in His place The gospel was to reveal this good news. Repentance and forgiveness providing a real relationship to the end that one could be obedient to God and enjoy His blessing and friendship and a future together eventually in His home.
Jesus told of a man the received forgiveness, and did not forgive others . did you ever read that? I suppose not.
The man's forgiveness was revoked.
You may want to mention that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles but only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus called Paul and made him the Apostle to the Gentiles and gave him the gospel of the Grace of God. When you mix the two dispensations together you always get it wrong. Just as black and white when mixed are now only gray. You must "Rightly Divide The Word of God".
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