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I realize in this day and age of the rabid attempt of disproving \ discrediting the Bible for a variety of reasons, but it should be mentioned that are several plausible answers:
1) in some cultures where the house and some animals were kept ... both buildings are connected to each other.
2) there have been some archeological finds dating from the time period of Christ's birth in Israel of houses that had stone troughs (i.e. "mangers") in them
but the most probable scenario is:
3)
Luke's account is focusing on the night of Christ's birth
...........while....
Matthew's account is focusing on a later dateother than the nightof Christ's birth (as much as one year later) since Herold ordered the infanticide of boys two years old and under.
I realize in this day and age of the rabid attempt of disproving \ discrediting the Bible for a variety of reasons, but it should be mentioned that are several plausible answers:
1) in some cultures where the house and some animals were kept ... both buildings are connected to each other.
2) there have been some archeological finds dating from the time period of Christ's birth in Israel of houses that had stone troughs (i.e. "mangers") in them
but the most probable scenario is:
3)
Luke's account is focusing on the night of Christ's birth
...........while....
Matthew's account is focusing on a later dateother than the nightof Christ's birth (as much as one year later) since Herold ordered the infanticide of boys two years old and under.
Bavarian farmers just 100 years ago built their houses and cow barns as a single unit with a passage way connecting the living quarters with the barn, this was due to the harsh winters in the Black Forest...
I've asked myself this many, many times since finding this forum: Why do Christians of various stripes spend so much time arguing/debating/preaching/screeching about various interpretations of biblical minutiae and ignore your Christ's central message?
You said a mouthful
People, the point is NOT where he was born, or where he was laid down as an infant
The point is THAT he was born and that he came into this world to bring love to all God's people.
Actually, he was more than likely born in something that more or less resembled a cave. The manger is the feeding trough where he was supposedly laid. The misleading part concerns the time of arrival of the wisemen. They could not conceivably arrived in Bethlehem the night of Christ's birth, as they are often depicted to have done. As you said, Mary and Joseph were living in a house by the time the wisemen visited and Jesus was not a baby, but a toddler.
That's a new one on me. The wise men/Magi are supposed to have arrived 12 days after the birth--hence Epiphany and the 12 days of Christmas and the reason why our Puerto Rican friends celebrate Dia De los Tres Reyes. Not sure it was really 12 days, either, though, lol.
That's a new one on me. The wise men/Magi are supposed to have arrived 12 days after the birth--hence Epiphany and the 12 days of Christmas and the reason why our Puerto Rican friends celebrate Dia De los Tres Reyes. Not sure it was really 12 days, either, though, lol.
I think that, if you do some research, you'll discover that most Bible scholars (regardless of denomination) believe that Jesus was probably at least a year old at the time of the Magi's visit to the "house" where he was living. Remember, too, that Herod had ordered the killing of all male children under the age of two years. This doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus was two, but if He were only twelve days old, the killing of all two year-olds would have probably been unnecessary, even in Herod's mind. Finally, keep in mind that they came from over 700 miles away. To travel that far in twelve days would simply have been impossible. I think the arrival date of 12 days after Christ's birth is likely just as much tradition as the idea that He was actually born on December 25.
But as several posters have already pointed out, none of this really matters to most people. What matters is that condescended to come to earth, lived a perfect life and died that we might be forgiven of our sins and be reconciled to God. Why anyone would care about any of the details of the navitity story is beyond me. (And I say that as someone who is very much into Christmas as a relgious holiday.)
I think that, if you do some research, you'll discover that most Bible scholars (regardless of denomination) believe that Jesus was probably at least a year old at the time of the Magi's visit to the "house" where he was living. Remember, too, that Herod had ordered the killing of all male children under the age of two years. This doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus was two, but if He were only twelve days old, the killing of all two year-olds would have probably been unnecessary, even in Herod's mind. Finally, keep in mind that they came from over 700 miles away. To travel that far in twelve days would simply have been impossible. I think the arrival date of 12 days after Christ's birth is likely just as much tradition as the idea that He was actually born on December 25.
I think you misread my post. I'm very much aware of that, no research needed. I was just saying I'd never heard of the "same night" story, just the 12-day story, and neither is probably accurate, but the 12-night story is probably the better known.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
But as several posters have already pointed out, none of this really matters to most people. What matters is that condescended to come to earth, lived a perfect life and died that we might be forgiven of our sins and be reconciled to God. Why anyone would care about any of the details of the navitity story is beyond me. (And I say that as someone who is very much into Christmas as a relgious holiday.)
And I agree with that 100%. It doesn't matter one bit, except to those of us who follow the liturgical calendar with the pretty colors and related prayers and all as a means of tradition. But still--it just doesn't matter.
Where does it state that the Magi were Kings?...A Magi was a High Priest in the religion of Zoroastrianism...
From 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia:
Quote:
No Father of the Church holds the Magi to have been kings. Tertullian ("Adv. Marcion.", III, xiii) says that they were wellnigh kings (fere reges), and so agrees with what we have concluded from non-Biblical evidence. The Church, indeed, in her liturgy, applies to the Magi the words: "The kings of Tharsis and the islands shall offer presents; the kings of the Arabians and of Saba shall bring him gifts: and all the kings of the earth shall adore him" (Psalm 71:10). But this use of the text in reference to them no more proves that they were kings than it traces their journey from Tharsis, Arabia, and Saba.
From: The Zarathushtrian Assembly The Zorathushtrian Assembly Dr. Ali Jafarey: Maga/Magos/Magi = Magnanimous/Generous
Quote:
"It is "Maga" in the Zoroastrian scripture. "Maga" in Avesta and "magha" in Sanskrit is derived from "maz/mah" meaning "to be great, magnanimous, liberal, generous." Maga/magha means "greatness, magnanimity, generosity."
I think you misread my post. I'm very much aware of that, no research needed. I was just saying I'd never heard of the "same night" story...
Yeah, I guess I did misread it. But I know that as a child, I always thought it was "the same night." It was only as an adult that I learned otherwise.
I realize in this day and age of the rabid attempt of disproving \ discrediting the Bible for a variety of reasons, but it should be mentioned that are several plausible answers:
1) in some cultures where the house and some animals were kept ... both buildings are connected to each other.
2) there have been some archeological finds dating from the time period of Christ's birth in Israel of houses that had stone troughs (i.e. "mangers") in them
but the most probable scenario is:
3)
Luke's account is focusing on the night of Christ's birth
...........while....
Matthew's account is focusing on a later dateother than the nightof Christ's birth (as much as one year later) since Herold ordered the infanticide of boys two years old and under.
Considering the death of children up to age 2 was ordered, then that would have meant a calculation of more than one year later. Since Matthew repeatedly uses the word ' child ' Not infant or toddler at Matthew 2 vs 8,9,11,13,20,21 then it would seem logical Jesus was No longer a babe in a manger. The un-numbered magi were never at the manger. The 'star' took them to Jesus' enemy in Jerusalem Not ever to the manger. By the time they left Jerusalem and found the child Jesus he was in a house.- verse 11.
Luke adds when Jesus was 40 days old his parents took Jesus to Jerusalem - [ Luke 2 v 22 ]
Wasn't the manger the separate area where the animals were fed ?
That manger area would have to be kept clean in order for the animals to have a clean feeding area.
Wouldn't the animals have slept in a separate area separated from the manger or feeding area ?
Yeah, I guess I did misread it. But I know that as a child, I always thought it was "the same night." It was only as an adult that I learned otherwise.
Well in the pageant it happens on the same night!
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I was just saying I'd never heard of the "same night" story, just the 12-day story, and neither is probably accurate, but the 12-night story is probably the better known.
