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Either you believe in tithe or not. You can't have it both ways. According to you, one can give less than 10%. But that would rob God of helping your neighbor or the church. God said do not rob God. So which is it, 10% or less. See, there is a problem with teaching a tithe as nowhere in Scripture does it talk about money as a tithe but rather food, wine and oil.
DEUT 14:22-27 You shall truly tithe all the increase of your seed, that the field brings forth year by year. And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place which He shall choose to place His name there [Jerusalem], the tithe of you corn, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks; that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that you are not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from you, which the LORD your God shall choose to set His name there, when the LORD your God has blessed you: Then shall you turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose: And you shall bestow that money for whatsoever your soul desires after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever your soul desires: and you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you, and your household, And the Levite that is within your gates; you shall not forsake him; for he has no part nor inheritance with you." Money was not to be given as a tithe.
But in the third year:
DEUT 14:28-29 "At the end of three years you shall bring forth all the tithe of your increase the same year, and shall lay it up [a storehouse] within your gates [no need in third year to go to Jerusalem]: And the Levite, because he has no part nor inheritance with you, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within your gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do."
The tithe was for the person who gave, for the Levite, the poor, the fatherless, the stranger and the widow.
The fact is there is no tithe requirement in the New Testament after the day of Pentacost, only offerings as one is able to give. Do some preachers even read the Bible? They are making merchandise of the people and especially the poor and laying guilt on them. Too bad for them because they miss out on those blessings that come with preaching the Truth about tithe. They do not forfeit all blessings because they teach tithe in ignorance but certainly they forfeit the blessings associated with this tithe doctrine as it is with all doctrine taught falsely.
Breaking with Scripture means least in the Kingdom with less authority/ability to influence others for there salvation sake but he who teaches correctly and does it obtains [not earns] more blessing and therefor greater having more authority/ability in the Kingdom.
However if one wants to give 10% in money, I doubt that God frowns on that but I think He does if it is pushed on others and especially the poor as a command from God.
If your a church leader and are discharged with making sure the bills get paid, you believe tithing is Biblical.
If your a regular attender you give regularly. This member believes in cheerful giving.
If you attend church sporadically your give sporadically. This member gives what they can spare.
If you a CEO member (Christmas and Easter Only) you give what you believe would be equal to a ticket price.
If you a believer but don't attend a church you've become an expert on why tithing is Biblically incorrect.
If your a church leader and are discharged with making sure the bills get paid, you believe tithing is Biblical.
If your a regular attender you give regularly. This member believes in cheerful giving.
If you attend church sporadically your give sporadically. This member gives what they can spare.
If you a CEO member (Christmas and Easter Only) you give what you believe would be equal to a ticket price.
If you a believer but don't attend a church you've become an expert on why tithing is Biblically incorrect.
Not a 100% accurate... but darn close.
... just sayin'
Or you could be a member of a church like Calvary Chapel of Honolulu, where the pastor has said "Every member has a resource, every member has a need" and "No member of this congregation need ever worry about where he will sleep, what he will wear, or whether he will have a meal--we will make sure that every member's needs are taken care of."
The pastor didn't talk about tithing. In fact, the offering plate passed so swiftly that if you didn't have your money out and ready, you missed it.
But he did talk a lot about what the members did for each other, the needs that were discovered and the resources that were found to meet them.
And he did ask each member to pray so that the Holy Spirit would reveal what resources he had in excess of his needs, and what needs he had to be filled. He believed that as pastor, one of his roles was to match resources to needs.
That was the only church I ever attended that kept a widow's list. In fact, it was a "widows and single mothers" list. It wasn't so much to give them money as to recognize them as more vulnerable and to make sure they were doing okay. That would include, for instance, make sure they were checked on if there was a storm. It was a matter of the men of the congregation being good brothers and sons to women who were vulnerable.
Many times a member's resource wasn't money at all. We had a bunch of young men--soldiers, nightclub bouncers, college football players--whose only resource was that they were big, burly guys. So they were in the Security Ministry.
One member owned a Chevron service station with three service bays. The Holy Spirit told him to donate space, time and materials, so he approached the pastor with this offering: One Saturday a month he would donate two service bays and whatever parts and supplies he had, and would purchase whatever parts anyone needed at his own cost. His chief mechanic volunteered his own time, and a number of us who were decent mechanics (I was pretty good with Fords and Chryslers) also donated their time. That included a couple of members who were pro mechanics at two of the local dealerships.
The pastor matched that resource to the widow's and single mother's list. So each woman was scheduled to bring her car in on a Saturday every three months, and we did everything to her car that we saw necessary. This kind of routine maintenance saved these women thousands of dollars in repairs over time.
The interesting thing: The station owner told me that at first he intended to count the cost of that effort as an offering to the church. But...it never affected his bottom line. At the end of each month, he was not a single dime short.
The pastor noticed that there were some wives in the congregation who had been abused. As far as he was concerned, that was a 1 Corinthians 5 issue that the church had a responsibility to become involved in. So his wife set up what they called the House of Ruth. They found a number of older members were "empty nesters" who had room to spare in their homes; they offered their homes as a chain of confidential safe houses. The congregation had a number of professional counselors and police and security officers as well to be part of the effort.
So if a woman in the congregation was found to be abused by her husband (and the women of the church were fairly aggressive about discovering that kind of thing), a Security Ministry team went in and moved her out of the house to a safe house while the husband was away.
Then a team of counselors and Security Team would wait in the house for the husband to get back home.
"Where is my wife?"
"Our dear sister is safe. And she's going stay safe. But we have to talk."
The House of Ruth was also used for the church's ministry to the prostitutes downtown. They realized that if a prostitute responded to the gospel they preached, she became their sister and their responsibility in that moment. They couldn't just pat her on the head and tell her to go to church on Sunday.
Former prostitute to pimp: "I'm a Christian now. I don't do those things anymore." Talk about the cares of the world choking out the gospel. Literally.
So they realized they had to take her off the street and start her life as a "new creation in Christ" at that very moment. They used the House of Ruth safe houses for that. Then they had people in the congregation who could deal with whatever medical, legal, or social problems she came with.
When you go to a church like that, you don't need anyone preaching tithing to you. The Holy Spirit convicts you to want be a part of all that.
Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; 12-01-2013 at 11:13 AM..
Or you could be a member of a church like Calvary Chapel of Honolulu, where the pastor has said "Every member has a resource, every member has a need" and "No member of this congregation need ever worry about where he will sleep, what he will wear, or whether he will have a meal--we will make sure that every member's needs are taken care of."
The pastor didn't talk about tithing. In fact, the offering plate passed so swiftly that if you didn't have your money out and ready, you missed it.
But he did talk a lot about what the members did for each other, the needs that were discovered and the resources that were found to meet them.
And he did ask each member to pray so that the Holy Spirit would reveal what resources he had in excess of his needs, and what needs he had to be filled. He believed that as pastor, one of his roles was to match resources to needs.
That was the only church I ever attended that kept a widow's list. In fact, it was a "widows and single mothers" list. It wasn't so much to give them money as to recognize them as more vulnerable and to make sure they were doing okay. That would include, for instance, make sure they were checked on if there was a storm. It was a matter of the men of the congregation being good brothers and sons to women who were vulnerable.
Many times a member's resource wasn't money at all. We had a bunch of young men--soldiers, nightclub bouncers, college football players--whose only resource was that they were big, burly guys. So they were in the Security Ministry.
One member owned a Chevron service station with three service bays. The Holy Spirit told him to donate space, time and materials, so he approached the pastor with this offering: One Saturday a month he would donate two service bays and whatever parts and supplies he had, and would purchase whatever parts anyone needed at his own cost. His chief mechanic volunteered his own time, and a number of us who were decent mechanics (I was pretty good with Fords and Chryslers) also donated their time. That included a couple of members who were pro mechanics at two of the local dealerships.
The pastor matched that resource to the widow's and single mother's list. So each woman was scheduled to bring her car in on a Saturday every three months, and we did everything to her car that we saw necessary. This kind of routine maintenance saved these women thousands of dollars in repairs over time.
The interesting thing: The station owner told me that at first he intended to count the cost of that effort as an offering to the church. But...it never affected his bottom line. At the end of each month, he was not a single dime short.
The pastor noticed that there were some wives in the congregation who had been abused. As far as he was concerned, that was a 1 Corinthians 5 issue that the church had a responsibility to become involved in. So his wife set up what they called the House of Ruth. They found a number of older members were "empty nesters" who had room to spare in their homes; they offered their homes as a chain of confidential safe houses. The congregation had a number of professional counselors and police and security officers as well to be part of the effort.
So if a woman in the congregation was found to be abused by her husband (and the women of the church were fairly aggressive about discovering that kind of thing), a Security Ministry team went in and moved her out of the house to a safe house while the husband was away.
Then a team of counselors and Security Team would wait in the house for the husband to get back home.
"Where is my wife?"
"Our dear sister is safe. And she's going stay safe. But we have to talk."
The House of Ruth was also used for the church's ministry to the prostitutes downtown. They realized that if a prostitute responded to the gospel they preached, she became their sister and their responsibility in that moment. They couldn't just pat her on the head and tell her to go to church on Sunday.
Former prostitute to pimp: "I'm a Christian now. I don't do those things anymore." Talk about the cares of the world choking out the gospel. Literally.
So they realized they had to take her off the street and start her life as a "new creation in Christ" at that very moment. They used the House of Ruth safe houses for that. Then they had people in the congregation who could deal with whatever medical, legal, or social problems she came with.
When you go to a church like that, you don't need anyone preaching tithing to you. The Holy Spirit convicts you to want be a part of all that.
Such a great church you attend. A model for others who can accommodate such charity. The blessings of the Lord must be very rich at your church. God speed to you and your church. Amen
Or you could be a member of a church like Calvary Chapel of Honolulu, where the pastor has said "Every member has a resource, every member has a need" and "No member of this congregation need ever worry about where he will sleep, what he will wear, or whether he will have a meal--we will make sure that every member's needs are taken care of."
The pastor didn't talk about tithing. In fact, the offering plate passed so swiftly that if you didn't have your money out and ready, you missed it.
But he did talk a lot about what the members did for each other, the needs that were discovered and the resources that were found to meet them.
And he did ask each member to pray so that the Holy Spirit would reveal what resources he had in excess of his needs, and what needs he had to be filled. He believed that as pastor, one of his roles was to match resources to needs.
That was the only church I ever attended that kept a widow's list. In fact, it was a "widows and single mothers" list. It wasn't so much to give them money as to recognize them as more vulnerable and to make sure they were doing okay. That would include, for instance, make sure they were checked on if there was a storm. It was a matter of the men of the congregation being good brothers and sons to women who were vulnerable.
Many times a member's resource wasn't money at all. We had a bunch of young men--soldiers, nightclub bouncers, college football players--whose only resource was that they were big, burly guys. So they were in the Security Ministry.
One member owned a Chevron service station with three service bays. The Holy Spirit told him to donate space, time and materials, so he approached the pastor with this offering: One Saturday a month he would donate two service bays and whatever parts and supplies he had, and would purchase whatever parts anyone needed at his own cost. His chief mechanic volunteered his own time, and a number of us who were decent mechanics (I was pretty good with Fords and Chryslers) also donated their time. That included a couple of members who were pro mechanics at two of the local dealerships.
The pastor matched that resource to the widow's and single mother's list. So each woman was scheduled to bring her car in on a Saturday every three months, and we did everything to her car that we saw necessary. This kind of routine maintenance saved these women thousands of dollars in repairs over time.
The interesting thing: The station owner told me that at first he intended to count the cost of that effort as an offering to the church. But...it never affected his bottom line. At the end of each month, he was not a single dime short.
The pastor noticed that there were some wives in the congregation who had been abused. As far as he was concerned, that was a 1 Corinthians 5 issue that the church had a responsibility to become involved in. So his wife set up what they called the House of Ruth. They found a number of older members were "empty nesters" who had room to spare in their homes; they offered their homes as a chain of confidential safe houses. The congregation had a number of professional counselors and police and security officers as well to be part of the effort.
So if a woman in the congregation was found to be abused by her husband (and the women of the church were fairly aggressive about discovering that kind of thing), a Security Ministry team went in and moved her out of the house to a safe house while the husband was away.
Then a team of counselors and Security Team would wait in the house for the husband to get back home.
"Where is my wife?"
"Our dear sister is safe. And she's going stay safe. But we have to talk."
The House of Ruth was also used for the church's ministry to the prostitutes downtown. They realized that if a prostitute responded to the gospel they preached, she became their sister and their responsibility in that moment. They couldn't just pat her on the head and tell her to go to church on Sunday.
Former prostitute to pimp: "I'm a Christian now. I don't do those things anymore." Talk about the cares of the world choking out the gospel. Literally.
So they realized they had to take her off the street and start her life as a "new creation in Christ" at that very moment. They used the House of Ruth safe houses for that. Then they had people in the congregation who could deal with whatever medical, legal, or social problems she came with.
When you go to a church like that, you don't need anyone preaching tithing to you. The Holy Spirit convicts you to want be a part of all that.
Who can say anything bad about this church? It Sounds wonderful! I want to be part of that… and who wouldn’t?
Let me just add something additional to think about... which is borne of experience and not out of criticism. We have plenty of great and wonderful churches led by many great and wonderful Godly men. However if we put our stock in such men (or church), are we worshiping him? Is it still God’s house or pastor “who ever” church? When we “give” to the church must a man who leads the congregation “get it right” in our eyes for us to be faithful givers? I might say sometimes, especially if the church isn’t being good stewards with our giving. After all, God gave us this blessing first , and He expects us to use it wisely = good stewardship.
Let me ask this… does it take more faith to give to a church you’ve described or to a church that has a different focus but is still doing God’s work? The church you described makes everyone “feel” good about being part of that organization, but what about a church that has a strong prison ministry, or focused on Haitian relief? Or is a missionary organization? Things you can't see? You may be asked to give by faith.
Having been an elder, let me say what I’ve observed… the part of the church you see is outside. It can be pretty, it can be dressed up, it can be lovely. In other words it can be everything you expect a church to look like and be. However, if you want to see the muscles (deacons) and bones (elders) and see it’s strength and what holds it up, you have look more then skin deep.
Always test the spirits, with respect… so even the elect won’t be fooled.
Who can say anything bad about this church? It Sounds wonderful! I want to be part of that… and who wouldn’t?
Let me just add something additional to think about... which is borne of experience and not out of criticism. We have plenty of great and wonderful churches led by many great and wonderful Godly men. However if we put our stock in such men (or church), are we worshiping him? Is it still God’s house or pastor “who ever” church? When we “give” to the church must a man who leads the congregation “get it right” in our eyes for us to be faithful givers? I might say sometimes, especially if the church isn’t being good stewards with our giving. After all, God gave us this blessing first , and He expects us to use it wisely = good stewardship.
There are two commands the Lord gives the Body of Christ:
1. Preach the gospel, making disciples from all nations.
2. Take care of the disciples we make.
Not a lot of congregations do both well. But while all at least acknowledge #1, a great number of congregations-- in America in particular--don't even see #2 as a responsibility. They're very fond of quoting 2 Thessalonians 3:10 and Benjamin Franklin ("God helps those who help themselves") but seem not to have read
I've never been in or visited a congregation that did not have an evangelistic ministry (and my wife and I have been around the world a couple of times), but I've only been in one that kept a widow's list. I've only been in one congregation in which the pastor stated up front, "We take care of our congregational family, because it's worse than being an infidel not to take care of your own family."
...So I spoke in that paticular post of that congregation. I didn't get into that church's missionary efforts, which span the entire Pacific Rim and Polynesian islands in addition to the local area, as well as their prison ministry and their specific ministry to combat Hawaii state's official school pagan education program. They're certainly not ignoring evangelism.
Quote:
Let me ask this… does it take more faith to give to a church you’ve described or to a church that has a different focus but is still doing God’s work? The church you described makes everyone “feel” good about being part of that organization, but what about a church that has a strong prison ministry, or focused on Haitian relief? Or is a missionary organization? Things you can't see? You may be asked to give by faith.
Having been an elder, let me say what I’ve observed… the part of the church you see is outside. It can be pretty, it can be dressed up, it can be lovely. In other words it can be everything you expect a church to look like and be. However, if you want to see the muscles (deacons) and bones (elders) and see it’s strength and what holds it up, you have look more then skin deep.
Now, you speak of "things you can't see." How can evangelist ministries of a congregation be "things you can't see?" Are your elders sending people to Haiti and telling nobody about it? I wouldn't think that to be the case.
For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, [SIZE=2]so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. -- Romans 12[/SIZE]
Notice that Paul does not say that the Body of Christ is made up of only deacons and elders. He says "each of us." I don't understand what you're saying. How is it that the "muscles" and "bones" are going somewhere unknown to the rest of the Body? How does it work like that in your congregation?
Or are those deacons and elders not involving all of the other members of the Body into the work of the Body?
Quote:
Always test the spirits, with respect… so even the elect won’t be fooled.
Now, here is a test of the Spirit: The miraculous multiplication of resources (Matthew 14:13-21).
Remember what I said about the Chevron owner whose bottom line did not drop even though he was donating his "excess resource?"
As well, whenever the congregation moveed out in faith on a work the Holy Spirit called them to--such as the ministry to the Hotel Street prostitutes, or the House of Ruth--the resources were always available right there in the congregation. With every need--doctors, lawyers, counselors, burly men, wealthy men, people with time to spare, people with room in their homes--the resources were always right there. And as they expanded their efforts, the resources expanded with it.
When we see Jesus giving His disciples a task, worrying about resources was always unnecessary (a lesson they didn't learn immediately). A church does not have to beg for resources when theyre undertaking a task truly assigned by the Holy Spirit. The resources will be there.
But many congregations don't even use the resources they have. Many congregations are like the 1-talent steward--they have resources sitting in the pews that they never use to the Master's benefit.
As the pastor of the congregation I bragged about said, "Every member has a resource." If the Holy Spirit has put a person into that pew, that person is a resource. Every single member is a talent entrusted to the elders to use to the Master's profit..and they will be held accountable for how profitably they used that resource.
Do they ever stand up on a Sunday morning and say, "We have this task...we need ten men to stand up right now. We have this task...we need ten women to stand up right now. We have this task...we need four doctors. We have this task...we need two lawyers."
And then do they praise God to the congregation? "We had a task, and praise God, He provided four lawyers to carry it out!"
I haven't seen (or at least I missed) anyone mention 2 Corinthians 9:7-12.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly , or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written , He hath dispersed abroad he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
I haven't seen (or at least I missed) anyone mention 2 Corinthians 9:7-12.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly , or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written , He hath dispersed abroad he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
you missed it.... It's there, many times, just not in complete and quoted text.
When I spoke of "things you can't see" ... think of your own bones and muscles and what your body would be like with out them, or if they weren't healthy. You can't see them but you know they're there. Bones hold up the body and muscles do the work, hidden from view but evident none-the-less.
You may have mis-interpreted my poorly worded metaphor.
The body is an organism and too many think of it as an organization. Yes... elders and decons are the structure but there is so much more to us then bones and muscles... the body requires eyes, hands, feet. and so much more.
Hope this makes my experiences and observation a bit clearer for you... and my intent was not to be critical.
...just sayin'
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