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Old 11-25-2007, 05:38 PM
 
Location: NC
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown Thanks very much for sharing. I believe that if one commits the unpardonable or unforgivable sin, it will be confined to the ages. Even those who rejected the work of the Holy Spirit and rebelled against God are vessels prepared for destruction according to God's will. God blinded the hearts and minds of many for His purposes although they will be held accountable for their rejection of Him. They will suffer the consequences for their rejection but they will be delivered when all of creation is finally delivered (Romans 8) God bless.

Quote:

What is it you find in Romans 8 that would point you towards a belief in universalism?
Hi Scamp,

Romans 8:18-22
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.



Quote:
In Paul's listing of the doctrines taught by Christ in Hebrews 6:2 is that of eternal judgment. So this is not some added doctrine of later ages, it was a part of Jesus’ teachings. There is ‘eternal life’ and ‘eternal judgment’, and both words in the Greek for ‘eternal’ are the same. The word for ‘eternal’ is aionos, and aion. The word means ‘without beginning, without end, has been and always will be, never to cease, everlasting.’ That sounds pretty clear.

I'm not sure but it looks like the references that you gave are from a specific translation. Many disagree with the way that aion/aionios have been translated in some translations. There are numerous problems when they are translated as eternity and eternal: For example:

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."


The Interpreter’s Dictionry of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life," then "age," "lifetime."


Elliot’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios—it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).


Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370): The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.)


The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as ‘forever,’ means in itself no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean ‘from eternity’ but ‘of old’ Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

[]Dr. F.W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Work of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are "endless" does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant 'endless;' and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd." In his book, Mercy and Judgment, Dr. Farrar states (p. 378), "Since aion meant 'age,' aionios means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant 'eternity,' which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek-aionios could still mean only 'belonging to eternity' and not 'lasting through it.'"

Lange's Commentary American Edition (vol. V, p. 48), on Ecclesiastes chapter 1 verse 4, in commenting upon the statement "The earth abideth forever" says, "The preacher, in contending with the universalist, or restorationist, would commit an error, and, it may be, suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words, aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that, of themselves, they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration." On page 45 of the same work, Dr. Taylor Lewis says: "The Greek aiones and aiones ton aionon, the Latin secula, and secula seculorum, the Old Saxon, or Old English of Wicliffe, to worldis or worldis (Heb. XIII 21), or our more modern phrase, for ever and ever, wherever the German ewig, was originally a noun denoting age or a vast period, just like the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew words corresponding to it."

The Rev. Bennet, in his Olam Hanneshamoth (p. 44), says, "The primary nature of olam is 'hidden,' and both as to past and future denotes a duration that is unknown." Olam is the Hebrew word for the Greek aion.

The Parkhurst Lexicon: "Olam (aeon) seems to be used much more for an indefinite than for an infinite time."

Chapter Three


"The Scriptures, the ultimate authority for God's use of words, use the adjective aionios in the Greek New Testament thus: 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 "pro chronon aionion," "before times eonian." KJV: "before the world began." ASV: "before times eternal." As mentioned previously, since these verses tell of time before the eons, eonian times cannot be "eternal." Eternity has no beginning, so nothing can be pro, "before." The ASV is one of our better translations in the English language. With all due respect to the committee which worked at making that version, let it be said its members missed the meaning of this phrase and translated it with nonsensical terms. Dr. Marvin R. Vincent, in his Word Studies of the New Testament (vol. IV, p. 291): "If it is insisted that aionios means everlasting, this statement is absurd. It is impossible that anything should take place 'before everlasting times.'" The phrase "before times eternal" is actually a contradiction in three words. The ASV margin reads: "long ages ago;" a much better translation.
Ezekiel 16:55 says, "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate." Since this scripture refers to a restoration of Sodom, its judgment cannot be for "eternity." In Jude, the Greek adjective aionios, eonian, is used when the judgment of Sodom is mentioned.
Jude 7 states that Sodom is an example of puros aioniou dikÍn hupechousai, "experiencing the justice of fire eonian." KJV: "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." In this translation, the KJV at Jude 7 contradicts that of Ezekiel 16:50-56. Those visiting the area today see no fire, for if our archaeologists are correct in locating its former site, it lies beneath a sea. Many such seeming contradictions would not exist in the KJV had the Greek word been translated correctly to express limited time, instead of "eternal."
Philemon tells of a runaway slave who was converted by Paul to believing in the risen Christ. This slave was returned to his master, Philemon. Paul writes to Philemon, saying (v. 15), echoristÍ pros horan hina aionion auton apechÍs, "he was separated for an hour that you may be receiving him as an eonian repayment." The KJV says: "He therefore departed for a season that thou shouldst receive him forever." This translation seems to teach "eternal slavery." Correctly translated, there is no problem.
At Romans 16:25, the ASV reads, "Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept in silence through times eternal." If this verse is teaching of a mystery kept in silence through "times eternal," the mystery would never have been made known. The context in which this verse lies shows that ai÷nios, eonian, cannot be referring to "eternal" or "endless" time, for the verse following (v. 26) says: "but is now manifested." If we are to understand "eternal" to refer to unlimited time, then how could the mystery now be manifested? The KJV says, "which has been kept secret since the world began, but is now manifested." The translators recognized that limited time was in view.
The Greek text of this passage reads, "to de dunameno humas s[domain blocked due to spam]ai kata to euagelion mou kai kÍrugma iÍsou christou kata apokalupsin musteriou chronois aioniois sesigemenou phanerothentos de nun." "Now to Him Who is able to establish you according to my evangel, and the heralding of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of a secret having been hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now." Again, there is no contradiction when the translation is faithful to the Greek text, by simply transliterating the word aionios into the English word "eonian." The world is not that which is in view here, but time.
Many present the argument, "If aionios, eonian, does not mean endless time, then the believers do not have eternal, or everlasting life. The word is used at Romans 16:26 concerning God, and surely He is 'eternal;' therefore, the word must mean unlimited." As has been shown, the word in itself refers to limited time. However, the Greek does have a way of expressing endlessness by using words other than eon or eonian, such as in Luke 1:33: ouk estai telos, "there will be no end." Endless life is spoken of at Hebrews 7:16 thus: zo‚s akatalutou, "indissoluable life." The margin of the ASV: "indissoluable life." KJV: "endless life."
Believers do have endless life, for 1 Cor. 15:42 says the dead will be raised in "incorruption," and 1 Cor. 15:53 speaks of "deathlessness," or "immortality" (Greek: aphtharsia and athanasia) Endlessness is expressed by such particles as "not," "un-," "in-," "-less." Death will ultimately be abolished (see 1 Cor. 15:16), and when death is abolished, all that can remain is endless life for all. First Corinthians 15:22 in its context says that life will be IN CHRIST, where there will be no more dying, and those in the resurrection here mentioned will be incorruptible and immortal (see 1 Cor. 15:42, 53)

An age is not the same as eternity. God is also referred to as the aeonian God or God of the ages in scripture (Romans 16:26), meaning that He is working out His plan through the ages of time.


Chapter Four


Good reference for scriptures containing the word aion/aionios which has been translated as eternal or everlasting in many translations.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/comparative_concordance_aion.html

Quote:
]II Thessalonians 1:7-9 “...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power...”
Quote:
Yes, vengeance upon sin and sinners who would not repent and accept Jesus’ atonement is a certainty. It is fitting in the justice of our Lord. The gospel is the good news that there is a way of escape from such judgment. Salvation is never to be forced upon mankind. Those who oppose His offered solution for sin, will find hell to be eternal destruction.
I believe that the destruction spoken of is relating to the ages and not referring to an eternal situation. And I also believe that God will have His way with all men as His goal is to head up/reunite all things in Christ (Ephesians 1) One day every knee will bow and every knee will confess Him joyfully (Romans 14:11) and Isaiah 45:22 says:

"Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and shall not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, and every tongue will swear allegiance" (NASB)


All are to be subjected to Him that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:20-28) Thanks and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-25-2007 at 07:00 PM.. Reason: additions
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:16 PM
 
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Perhaps you are zealous in your sharing of this because you see it as a proof of the ultimate mercy of God and wish to clear up misconceptions. Perhaps you choose to because of pride. I neither judge you and am more convinced of the former than the latter.

However, it is a grievous error. It may not be so to you. For, if you are seeking with an open heart a relationship with the Lord, it is innocuous to your soul. But, if your dissemination of this error reaches the itching ears of someone who is wavering in their faith, or is struggling with their sin, they may grasp on to it and be willing to pay the price for their sins. Ultimately, they are lost and their blood is on your hands.

Why did Christ have to die? Who will pay the price for the sins of the souls in hell? Christ had to die in the flesh for the propitiation of the sins of the flesh. Thus, this offer is made for them who are still in the flesh, not their glorified bodies resurrected in the second resurrection. At that time all will see their error and yes, every knee shall bow. But their end is an eternity apart from God sealed with their sin and separated from His creation by the abyss.

Revelation 20:11-15 records the Great White Throne judgment of the dead which died without Christ. They will be judged according to their works, and we are told that we are not saved by our works. This judgment is to a sentencing of eternal torment in hell.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is after the judgment of the saints and after the millennial reign of Christ. Those who died without Christ will have had their souls residing in sheol. They will receive their glorified bodies at this resurrection of judgment and afterwards be cast into the lake of fire, or gehenna.

I am bound to correct you in this error. As I said, it may be not prevent you from heaven, but the blood of those who have stumbled at your error will be required of you. You may find that you will have to stand alongside those sentenced on that day and know of the role that you played.

I would caution you from disseminating this error. You may not agree with me, but if I am wrong, no one will suffer because of my error. If you are wrong, someone could take your word straight to hell with them.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:29 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Scamp, we disagree on what is viewed to be error. There are many scriptures which speak to the eventual restoration of all and it is very evident that there is a problems with the words which have been translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in some translations. Should we overlook this, turn the other way? My intentions are not to lead anyone into error but to share a belief which is believed to be supported in the scriptures and give the reasons for this. Many have examined this, including well respected Biblical scholars, and have come up with the same conclusions. There are many who believe in everlasting hell, many who believe in everlasting death, and many who believe in the final restoration of all. Should we turn dismiss those scriptures which speak to the eventual restoration of all? They are just as valid as those which speak of the wrath and judgments of God. This position is not a new idea, but one that was held by many of the early Christians. Many are not aware of this. Jesus died for all men and all men belong to Him. Paul says it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself through Jesus (Colossians 1:15-20) and many believe that Jesus will be victorious in reclaiming all that belong to Him. Is it wrong to share this? Those who may believe that this gives them a license to continue in sin will suffer the consequences. Yes, many will be thrown into the lake of fire and many will experience the judgments of God,this is not denied, yet there are scriptures which give us a glimpse into the final outcome for mankind and all of God's creation. It is believe that being cast into the lake of fire and experiencing the judgments of God have a higher purpose. Take care and God bless you.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-26-2007 at 01:33 AM..
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:52 AM
 
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Default saying that there is no God...

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Originally Posted by Padgett2 View Post
The unpardonable sin is to say that there is no god.

Why? Because if you believed there is no god, you can't very well ask for pardon from him, can you! However, if you changed your mind, repented of saying it, asked to be forgiven, then, of course you would be pardoned.

Have the rules been changed?
Interesting thread. I know it's older... but, it's a discussion that is worth opening again.

Does everyone agree that the Unpardonable Sin is "saying that there is no God"... i.e., turning away from God after knowing him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by curlythecosmo View Post
The Unpardonable Sin ( Mark 3:28-29)

The overall teaching of Scripture shows that God is ready to forgive the sin of any person who asks to be forgiven. Yet a few passages seem to refer to a sin that cannot be pardoned ( Mark 3:28 ; Luke 12:10; Heb.6:4-6; 1John 5:16).
In Mark's account the sin is called the sin against the Holy Spirit. These Jewish leaders had completely rejected Jesus, contending that His power did not come from God but from Satan (Mark 3:22). They had taken a deliberate attitude of hardened resistance. Thus they put themselves beyond reach of forgiveness.
Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-31 describe persons who once had a genuine experience of God's grace in Christ but then totally turned against Him. Those passages are not speaking of Christians who make mistakes or even who fall into sin through temptation. Rather, those people deliberately and persistently denied Christ. Because they turned from Him and refused to come back, there was no way for them to be forgiven.
In a similar pattern, those who committed the "sin leading to death" (1John 5:16) were probably former Christians who now refused to believe in, and follow, Christ.
In all of these circumstances, the problem is not God's refusal to forgive, but humanity's persistent and determined rejection of Christ. By this rejection persons put themselves beyond the reach of God's forgiveness. Those who are still concerned about their own salvation have not committed this sin.
Lord Bless!!!
Excellent post, curly...

So then, as long as someone feels the tug of the Holy Spirit drawing them back...leading them to repentance... then, they probably haven't gone too far,... they probably can repent and turn back to Him, right???

(Of course, that doesn't mean that anyone should presume on God's grace that He will always offer them this chance to repent...and His forgiveness)

Last edited by World Citizen; 05-04-2008 at 08:26 AM..
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Old 05-04-2008, 02:50 PM
 
Location: NC
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Does everyone agree that the Unpardonable Sin is "saying that there is no God"... i.e., turning away from God after knowing him?

No, everyone does not agree with this if you mean that there is no hope them. I believe that it refers to those who would not be pardoned when they attributed the works of the Holy Spirit to satan and as a result would not believe. How would they receive forgiveness if they would not believe? Everyone will eventually believe if they they all confess Him one day. Then they will see and understand. He will destroy the works of satan and submit all to Himself. Is the unbelief and rejection of God a work of satan? (Although God is sovereign over all) So I believe that it is limited to an age or the ages. Many will experience death, the punishments of God, be shut out of the kingdom and will not inherit the blessings associated with the kingdom but according to many scriptures, there is something beyond the ages waiting for all. (Romans 8, Colossians 1, 1 Cor. 15) God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-04-2008 at 03:20 PM.. Reason: additions
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I would caution you from disseminating this error. You may not agree with me, but if I am wrong, no one will suffer because of my error. If you are wrong, someone could take your word straight to hell with them.
Since I hold Shana's view of the 'end' I will respond even though this wasn't addressed to me personally.

I certainly see your point (and I'm sure Shana does too) and if I was not absolutely 100% positive concerning the plan God has for the ages, then I would take your warning to heart. But since I am 100% absolutely sure, I will continue disseminating the truth of the reconciliation of all those God created in His own image.

For me the "if" does not exist. I know God, I know His nature and His ultimate plan for humanity and am also sure He is pleased with my willingness to stand against the status quo of mainstream Christian doctrine and declare the truth (it had cost me a lot).

I would suggest you re-read Genesis 3 and see exactly what the result of disobedience was. No fire and brimstone. Then consider that the "Judgment of Gehenna" (KJV - "Damnation of Hell") was never spoken to the Gentiles even once or by any apostle of Christ to anyone (except James' one Gehenna reference concerning the tongue).

Add to that the fact that NO ONE I've ever met takes it seriously enough to maim themselves per Jesus' instructions, which proves no one really BELIEVES it is literal or eternal. I mean, by your logic, why take the CHANCE that Jesus didn't mean to literally cut off your hand or foot??? With your eternal soul at stake are you going to wimp out on that one or let your reasoning or (gasp) preachers tell you it's just metaphoric?

Sorry if I'm coming off as sarcastic or harsh, I really don't mean to but the amount of mis-information and misconception in evangelical Christianity is absolutely staggering. Eternal torment doctrine is insanity.

As to your assertion that "no one will suffer because of my error" I will have to strongly disagree. I personally know people who have suffered greatly, immeasurably, because of this terrible teaching of a God who 'allows' unending agony. I'm sure that you are not doing it on purpose though (as I believe is the case for all of my ET believing friends), and so are innocent of any wrong doing. I do hope that you will spend some time seeking God and re-reading scripture and one day be free from this most heinous of doctrines.

blessings,
- Byron
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Old 05-05-2008, 05:51 PM
 
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Love both you and Shana, Firstborn888.

I just read both of your posts.

First of all, Shana, Romans 8 is my favorite chapter in the whole Bible. And, I would like also to say that both you and Shana both have really sweet spirits. It comes through in all of your posts - loud and clear.

From your post Byron,

"As to your assertion that "no one will suffer because of my error" I will have to strongly disagree. I personally know people who have suffered greatly, immeasurably, because of this terrible teaching of a God who 'allows' unending agony. "

It seems that you're referring to legalists who have caused people to live in fear of losing their salvation.. by preaching a message of fear. It is unfortunate that so many people fall prey to that kind of teaching and do live in fear and with a wrong understanding of God.

I believe that this kind of teaching probably played a big part in both of your choices to find what you believe is a "kinder, gentler christianity"... i.e., legalism... Legalistic churches drive good, loving, christian people away from God. The God they preach is not the God that Jesus Christ came to reveal.

True. We all have to find our own understanding of who God is... but, you better be very sure that you're right if you teach others that there is no eternal judgment...

I know both of you have studied the Scriptures. As you know, you can take Scriptures out of context and prove many things right that are not...

You have to look at the Bible as a whole - "line upon line and precept upon precept..."

Teaching people that there is no eternal judgment is not showing them the goodness of God. If they choose to believe you and make wrong choices - there will be eternal consequences.

From the beginning of the Word of God until the end, the message is certain...

the wages of sin death...

Last edited by World Citizen; 05-05-2008 at 06:16 PM..
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:11 PM
 
Location: NC
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[Love both you and Shana, Firstborn888. I just read both of your posts.

First of all, Romans 8 is my favorite chapter in the whole Bible. Both you and Shana both have really sweet spirits. It comes through in all of your posts - loud and clear.

From your post Byron

"As to your assertion that "no one will suffer because of my error" I will have to strongly disagree. I personally know people who have suffered greatly, immeasurably, because of this terrible teaching of a God who 'allows' unending agony. "

It seems that you're referring to legalists who have caused people to live in fear of losing their salvation.. by preaching a message of fear. It is unfortunate that so many people fall prey to that kind of teaching and do live in fear and with a wrong understanding of God.

I believe that this kind of teaching probably played a big part in both of your choices to find what you believe is a "kinder, gentler christianity"... i.e., legalism... Legalistic churches drive good, loving, christian people away from God. The God they preach is not the God of the Bible... that Jesus Christ came to reveal.
Hi World Citizen, thank you for your kind remarks Love to you too and I appreciate your thoughtful and encouraging posts. I can only speak for myself, that I wanted to know the truth concerning this subject and several years of studying and praying have led me to this conclusion. I believe that this is what the scriptures teach about the purpose of God for all men. I do agree with Byron, that many have been harmed by the teaching of an eternal hell. Many have become alienated from God, have committed suicide, for example, but this is not the reason why I believe that it isn’t a true doctrine. I don’t see that this is taught in the scriptures.

Quote:
I think that we all have to find our own understanding of who God is... but, we better be very sure that we're right if we teach others that there is no eternal judgment...


Again, I believe that there is judgment but that eternal hell and eternal death are not for eternity. And I share this belief based on what I understand in the scriptures with God's help. I am not a preacher or trying to bring confusion. I am sharing a belief and the scriptural reasons for this belief. There are many problems with some of the words that have been translated as eternity or eternal in the scriptures , for example, when the whole context of the scriptures is considered and when the usage of the word in the original languages is considered

Quote:
I know both of you have studied the Scriptures. But, you can take Scriptures out of context and prove many things right that are not.


You are right, many things can be taken out of context but I don’t believe that this has been done. Can you show me where you think that this might have been done in the scriptures that have been shared?

Quote:
You really have to look at the Bible as a whole - "line upon line and precept upon precept..."

I agree.

Quote:
the wages of sin is death...


I agree. And as I have shared, I believe that many will experience death, exclusion, punishment. The thing is - death , the last enemy, is to be abolished one day. So how can it last forever? Rpmans 8 gives insight into a glorious promise. I believe that Jesus will do what He was sent to do and I don't believe that evil or satan or the creature's will is able to withstand or thwart God's purpose to reconcile all to Himself (Colossians 1) God bless and thanks again.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-05-2008 at 06:21 PM..
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Mount Vernon, WA
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Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Perhaps you are zealous in your sharing of this because you see it as a proof of the ultimate mercy of God and wish to clear up misconceptions. Perhaps you choose to because of pride. I neither judge you and am more convinced of the former than the latter.

However, it is a grievous error. It may not be so to you. For, if you are seeking with an open heart a relationship with the Lord, it is innocuous to your soul. But, if your dissemination of this error reaches the itching ears of someone who is wavering in their faith, or is struggling with their sin, they may grasp on to it and be willing to pay the price for their sins. Ultimately, they are lost and their blood is on your hands.

Why did Christ have to die? Who will pay the price for the sins of the souls in hell? Christ had to die in the flesh for the propitiation of the sins of the flesh. Thus, this offer is made for them who are still in the flesh, not their glorified bodies resurrected in the second resurrection. At that time all will see their error and yes, every knee shall bow. But their end is an eternity apart from God sealed with their sin and separated from His creation by the abyss.

Revelation 20:11-15 records the Great White Throne judgment of the dead which died without Christ. They will be judged according to their works, and we are told that we are not saved by our works. This judgment is to a sentencing of eternal torment in hell.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is after the judgment of the saints and after the millennial reign of Christ. Those who died without Christ will have had their souls residing in sheol. They will receive their glorified bodies at this resurrection of judgment and afterwards be cast into the lake of fire, or gehenna.

I am bound to correct you in this error. As I said, it may be not prevent you from heaven, but the blood of those who have stumbled at your error will be required of you. You may find that you will have to stand alongside those sentenced on that day and know of the role that you played.

I would caution you from disseminating this error. You may not agree with me, but if I am wrong, no one will suffer because of my error. If you are wrong, someone could take your word straight to hell with them.
Scamp, I totally agree with you. From a lifetime of studying the Scriptures and 2 years of intensive Bible College study, I do know the Bible. And I too fear for those who may not know the Scriptures well and who may be led astray. It is a deceit of the enemy of our souls that would deny there is a literal place called Hell.

From what I can see, Shana and others with her beliefs, I believe you are sincere, but you are sincerely wrong. And I think perhaps the purpose of this thread was to perpetuate your Universalist agenda and come into your true purpose through the back door.
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:00 PM
 
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Hi, what does this really mean? Does it mean that those who blasphemed against the Holy Spirit would be consigned to everlasting hell or everlasting death? The Pharisees had seen the work of the Holy Spirit but said that it was the work of the ruler of the demons, so how could they receive forgiveness anyway because they would not accept it as the work of God? Jesus specifies that whoever spoke against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come as recorded in Matthew 12:31 and in Mark 3:28-20, it is recorded as an “eternal” (aionios) sin, aionion refering to an “age" literally. What was the penalty? I believe that it was exclusion from participating in the promises relating to the kingdom in this age and in the age to come. These religious leaders expected to participate in the coming kingdom, but they would believe in Jesus even though they had seen the work of the Holy Spirit . But if it was more, when someone is not forgiven or pardoned for a sin, they must pay the penalty for the sin. When someone pays the penalty for a crime, if it is for a specific number of years they are released after serving the time. And if they are given life in prison, doesn’t there come a time upon their death when they are released from the prison cell? And if they are given the death penalty, they pay the penalty of death. Does this mean that their death is everlasting death? How can it be everlasting death when death itself is to be abolished one day? (1 Corinthians 15) and so the unforgivable or unpardonable sin means that the person will pay the penalty or has paid the penalty, whatever it is. If you believe that it was death (which Paul describes as the wages of sin), then there will be a release when according to Romans 8, the whole of creation is to delivered from the slavery to corruption and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Just sharing. God bless
Hi Aussiegal, my purpose for this thread was clearly stated in the opening post. I did not come through a back door. The thread was open for discussion and the question asked, does the unforgivable sin mean that those who committed it would be consigned to an eternal hell or everlasting death? I stated my reasons for why I did not think that this did. I think that I clearly stated my purpose for the thread when I started it. I do share my beliefs on the subject just as many share their beliefs on various subjects on the forums that are of interest to them. There are those who believe in an eternal hell who clearly seek to promote this belief on the forums. Many beliefs are promoted on the forums, aren't they? I understand that you think that Christians who believe this are sincerely wrong but many Christians who have studied the scriptures just as you have also believe that those who believe in an eternal hell may be sincerely wrong. Thanks and God bless you

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-05-2008 at 08:08 PM.. Reason: addition
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