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Old 02-08-2008, 09:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
The Self

godspeed,

freedom
Jesus experienced this death for everyone. He crucified man`s sinful nature to the cross. We accept it by the faith he gives us and we are reborn or born again. He sets us free. You were once dead in your sins,unable to experience the true life that God gives. Once you believe in Jesus,from within you flows rivers of living water. Your fleshly body will experience death and for unbelievers who die in this age,they will have to experience a second death. But ultamently Jesus will prevail!

 
Old 02-08-2008, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,667,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Jesus experienced this death for everyone. He crucified man`s sinful nature to the cross. We accept it by the faith he gives us and we are reborn or born again. He sets us free. You were once dead in your sins,unable to experience the true life that God gives. Once you believe in Jesus,from within you flows rivers of living water. Your fleshly body will experience death and for unbelievers who die in this age,they will have to experience a second death. But ultamently Jesus will prevail!
Actually if one gets to the point of faith where out of their belly flows LIVING waters, then no one can take their life from them, they will be able to lay it down or take it up...

Very few get to this point of faith on this earth.

Enoch was the first to overcome death, He was able to lead the whole city of Enoch to the path of Translation. Elijah and Moses also underwent Translation/Transfiguration (NT) They appeared for Jesus' transfiguration, on the mount of transfiguration. John the beloved and many of the other apostles were translated, most laid their lives down in martyrdom for the gospel and love of God's kingdom.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-09-2008, 04:07 PM
 
Location: NC
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Reputation: 1329
Quote:
The only way to enter into God`s kingdom is to be born again. Everbody has to experience two deaths....a physical death which we all know and a spirtual death. Our `old man` or sinful nature must die. God deals with our `old man` or sinful nature in one way...DEATH! He doesn`t try to re-educate the old man or transform him. The sinful nature must die and Jesus crucified him on the cross. For a select few,that death to old man occurs in this age. We are the firstfruits to rule with Christ in his millenial kingdom. For others, they will experience that second death in the `lake of fire`.They will be humbled just like a few in this life until they get rid of their old man and come to understand and accept Jesus`s crucifying of that sinful nature on the cross. They will stand in front of God`s consuming fire. He is called the consuming fire. What is he consuming? what is burned up in god`s fire or the lake of fire? It is our works our sinful nature..pride. I also believe God`s firstfruits will be the ones helping our loved ones and friends leave the lake of fire and enter into the holy city.But I believe the degrees of punishment will be different and for different durations but in the end, they too will come to accept the death of their `old man`so that God will restore HIS creation to it`s original purpose and the works of evil and death completely destroyed and God will be ALL in ALL just like he said he would.
Thanks for sharing, Dave. God bless.
 
Old 02-10-2008, 12:33 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,146,970 times
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Quote:
Enoch was the first to overcome death, He was able to lead the whole city of Enoch to the path of Translation. Elijah and Moses also underwent Translation/Transfiguration (NT) They appeared for Jesus' transfiguration, on the mount of transfiguration. John the beloved and many of the other apostles were translated, most laid their lives down in martyrdom for the gospel and love of God's kingdom.
I believe that Enoch's "not seeing death" refers to something else, maybe he was prevented from seeing death at a certain time, because Enoch is included in the group of individuals who "died in faith, without receiving the promises." (vs. 13) Jesus said that what the disciples saw on the Mount was a vision." God bless.
 
Old 02-10-2008, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,667,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
I believe that Enoch's "not seeing death" refers to something else, maybe he was prevented from seeing death at a certain time, because Enoch is included in the group of individuals who "died in faith, without receiving the promises." (vs. 13) Jesus said that what the disciples saw on the Mount was a vision." God bless.
I disagree with this understanding, The book of Enoch which has remained in the Canon of the Ethiopic bible clearly gives the record of the how's and whys.

Elijah was taken up without seeing death, and Moses as well. The record of Moses explains the war Satan's minions had with God regarding the body of Moses, and the darkness lost. That is why they appeared on the Mountain and everyone knew who they were. Transfiguration is very misunderstood doctrine, and due to unbelief, very few have experienced it.

Only modern interpretations have tried to explain away the power and wonders of God. With an open heart there are enough clues in the words of Christ to lead one to the right conclusions on what is possible and available to those that hunger and thirst after righteousness.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-10-2008, 12:17 PM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Freedom, thanks for sharing. I see that Elijah is included in the list if individuals in Hebrews who died in faith without receiving the promises (Heb.11:13) and it is recorded in the gospel of John that Jesus told the disciples that what they had seen was a vision. (Matt. 17:9) In John 3:13 Jesus is recorded as saying that no one has ascended up into heaven except the Son of Man. God bless.
 
Old 02-10-2008, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,667,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi Freedom, thanks for sharing. I see that Elijah is included in the list if individuals in Hebrews who died in faith without receiving the promises (Heb.11:13) and it is recorded in the gospel of John that Jesus told the disciples that what they had seen was a vision. (Matt. 17:9) In John 3:13 Jesus is recorded as saying that no one has ascended up into heaven except the Son of Man. God bless.
That's not what it says, it says

No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven.

All have come down from heaven, all can ascend up to heaven, and Jesus was standing on earth when He said, He was in heaven.

Read the record of Elijah's ascension. Those who died in faith, not having received the promises were those that were listed after. It clearly says that through faith Enoch did not see death, and was not found because God had Translated Him, for before His Translation he had this testimony, that He pleased God.
On the mount of Transfiguration God again said this is my Son in whom I am well pleased. The vision is also understood as event, it was not a dream, it really happened.
The prophecies of Enoch are mentioned in Jude, they are a record of great value, which shines more light on the message of Christ. Enoch is accounted as the firstborn of many. He was the 7th from Adam. His prophecies are the Enochian calendar that sets the times of God to man's understandings.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-10-2008, 12:51 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,146,970 times
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.
Quote:
That's not what it says, it says

No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven.

Young’s Lit:
Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive; 12. if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13. and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Here I read that Jesus says that no one has gone up to the heaven except he who came out of the came done-the Son of Man who is in the heaven, meaning to me that no individual has gone up into heaven except the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is also the only described as possessing immortality (1 Tim. 6:16) I do believe that individuals will ascend into heaven upon the resurrection.


Quote:
Read the record of Elijah's ascension. Those who died in faith, not having received the promises were those that were listed after. It clearly says that through faith Enoch did not see death, and was not found because God had Translated Him, for before His Translation he had this testimony, that He pleased God.
On the mount of Transfiguration God again said this is my Son in whom I am well pleased. The vision is also understood as event, it was not a dream, it really happened.
I believe that Enoch not seeing death must refer to not seeing death at a certain time, because he is clearly included in the group of individuals who died in faith. Perhaps this means that he was moved to another place in order to not experience or see death at that time. The whole chapter is speaking of those who died in faith.

translate/translation=metatithemi =to transfer to another place


Hebrews 1
1.And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,2. for in this were the elders testified of;3. by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;4. by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak.5. By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well,6. and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.7. By faith Noah, having been divinely warned concerning the things not yet seen, having feared, did prepare an ark to the salvation of his house, through which he did condemn the world, and of the righteousness according to faith he became heir.8. By faith Abraham, being called, did obey, to go forth to the place that he was about to receive for an inheritance, and he went forth, not knowing whither he doth go;9. by faith he did sojourn in the land of the promise as a strange country, in tabernacles having dwelt with Isaac and Jacob, fellow-heirs of the same promise,10. for he was looking for the city having the foundations, whose artificer and constructor [is] God.11. By faith also Sarah herself did receive power to conceive seed, and she bare after the time of life, seeing she did judge Him faithful who did promise;12. wherefore, also from one were begotten -- and that of one who had become dead -- as the stars of the heaven in multitude, and as sand that [is] by the sea-shore -- the innumerable.13. In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted [them], and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth,

The glory of the resurrection for believers is that this is when we will become immortal. I believe that Jesus stated that what was seen by the disciples was a vision. Moses is also described as one who died in faith not having received the promises. Thanks again for sharing and God bless.
 
Old 02-10-2008, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,667,671 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
.



Young’s Lit:
Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive; 12. if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13. and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Here I read that Jesus says that no one has gone up to the heaven except he who came out of the came done-the Son of Man who is in the heaven, meaning to me that no individual has gone up into heaven except the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is also the only described as possessing immortality (1 Tim. 6:16) I do believe that individuals will ascend into heaven upon the resurrection.



I believe that Enoch not seeing death must refer to not seeing death at a certain time, because he is clearly included in the group of individuals who died in faith. Perhaps this means that he was moved to another place in order to not experience or see death at that time. The whole chapter is speaking of those who died in faith.

translate/translation=metatithemi =to transfer to another place


Hebrews 1
1.And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,2. for in this were the elders testified of;3. by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;4. by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak.5. By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well,6. and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.7. By faith Noah, having been divinely warned concerning the things not yet seen, having feared, did prepare an ark to the salvation of his house, through which he did condemn the world, and of the righteousness according to faith he became heir.8. By faith Abraham, being called, did obey, to go forth to the place that he was about to receive for an inheritance, and he went forth, not knowing whither he doth go;9. by faith he did sojourn in the land of the promise as a strange country, in tabernacles having dwelt with Isaac and Jacob, fellow-heirs of the same promise,10. for he was looking for the city having the foundations, whose artificer and constructor [is] God.11. By faith also Sarah herself did receive power to conceive seed, and she bare after the time of life, seeing she did judge Him faithful who did promise;12. wherefore, also from one were begotten -- and that of one who had become dead -- as the stars of the heaven in multitude, and as sand that [is] by the sea-shore -- the innumerable.13. In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted [them], and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth,

The glory of the resurrection for believers is that this is when we will become immortal. I believe that Jesus stated that what was seen by the disciples was a vision. Moses is also described as one who died in faith not having received the promises. Thanks again for sharing and God bless.
It is a good argument that you are putting forward, but it does not work for my belief and interpretation. I believe we were in heaven before we came here, that all the sons of God shouted for joy, and the morning stars sang. That our names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, that we took part in the great creation and choosing of Christ.
That we were known before we were formed in the womb.


godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-10-2008, 02:58 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,146,970 times
Reputation: 1329
Thanks for sharing, Freedom. I believe in some of what you believe. God bless.
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