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I appreciate your honesty with your beliefs, but let me point out - the lake of fire is in the presence of the Lamb: "into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" so the 'separation' part doesn't work, all this is all done in God's very presence for "and age and an age" Greek 'aion' - you can't have two forevers!).
Well, you believe what most Christians believe there. That's easy to express - preachers say that a billion times a day
Wow, that's an amazing perspective. So, God could just reveal Himself and everyone would willingly choose Him because He's so overwhelming, but that wouldn't be right because He IS so overwhelming and that wouldn't take faith, so He hides Himself and those that can't make the faith leap are doomed for eternity.
I also believe He is overwhelming - you obviously know Him. I personally was overwhelmed by Him and it wasn't much of a chance/choice contest
Well, when He compelled me I really wasn't robbed of freedom, I was given freedom for the first time ever. I see the 'logic' here in one way, but in another way, including my personal experience - it's doesn't make any sense at all. It's all about the God shaped hole thing - you see Him, you need Him, it fits.
Again, this free-will is the most important thing of all thinking breaks down, because, as you already pointed out - when you see Him as He is He's irresistible. I really hope God doesn't decide to ditch me, because I was so stubborn and had to see/sense/feel His overwhelming-ness before I accepted Jesus.
All I can say here is that I'm stunned with how much you understand and how much you don't understand. I totally see the overwhelming compelling presence of God part. Look at Paul the apostle. He got to see Jesus' power and hear His voice (when He obviously wasn't looking for it). Sarcastically I'll say - THAT'S NOT FAIR!!! Same with the disciples - that got to see Him, even doubting Thomas got to SEE and believe, and Jesus didn't condemn Him for his lack of faith, He even complied with Thomas' request.
So, what I see is that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and it's because - as you said - they will see Him and be overcome by His magnificence. It's just as accepted by God as Thomas' 'had to see' confession or Paul's 'light as bright as the sun' confession or my 'overwhelmed by God's love and presence' confession. I don't think any of the three of us were robbed of our free-will!
I am amazed how close we are on this but how different our conclusions are. You'll also have to go (with your system) with a notion that it is worth it to God to make billions of people so just a few could willingly choose to love Him. He's willing to create eternal beings who can feel misery FOREVER, just so He can have the precious gift of willing lovers. I'm sorry, but that says something terrible about God's nature - and that's why it's not true.
With the logic here and what you see PLUS the many mistranslations about 'eternal' and 'hell' (age and Sheol) I think you really owe it to yourself to study a little deeper.
Consider the fact that NOTHING can exist 'separated' from God. All things exist by Him. NO one can live forever to be in misery by their 'choices' unless God actively sustains their life to do so.
Also consider again that the Lake of fire and what happens there is done IN the presence of the lamb and His holy messengers, and that's where you'll be too. Most Christians who believe in eternal torment want to distance themselves and God from what's happening there. My question is, if it's justice and good and all, why wouldn't we be there rejoicing with them that they weren't robbed of their free-will? I know it sounds silly, but.. why not?
What then does man have in his unredeemed, totally depraved state upon which God can act? He has eyes, but is blind. God can restore his vision. He has ears that are deaf. God can open his ears. He has a heart, but it is of stone. God can convert it to a heart of flesh. He has a spirit, but it is dead. God can make it live. So God has made man with the capacity to see, hear, and act responsively to his inspiring, but he cannot act until he is made alive. He cannot come forth from the tomb until he has been given a new life. Only then does he hear the voice of God saying, 'Come forth.'
When the Lord knocks at the door of a man's heart he cannot hear for he is deaf. Only when God opens his ears does he hear. And even then when he hears he is likely at first to say, 'I am in no convenient position to open. My children are in bed, the door is locked, we are 'closed for the night,' please don't bother me now' Only the caller's persistence, not the householder's desire to entertain the caller, drives him in the end to open the door; the Spirit of God acting upon his heart makes him a willing host. It is God's persistent knocking at the door of man's heart and not man's persistent knocking at the gates of heaven that brings the elect finally to salvation. Such, then, is the nature of the Total Depravity of man.-Arthur Custance-
I once met a lady who seemed to be a Christian. We went out for dinner and things like that. Eventually we got married. But eventually I learned that she was a member of a local little female power group who had thier own private "church" meetings and believed some really wierd things about the bible. Trying to tell them anything to help them recover from satans lies was the equivalent of talking to a brick wall. Eventually the lady abandoned me, being the victim of cultic brainwashing. It was sad, but I learned an important lesson----- Don't dance with the devil! If hard headed people are determined to believe a lie, despite the reasonable concern from sincere Christians, letum go. If they don't repent, sadly, if it has to be, they'll change thier doctrine about hell when they go there!
[quote=Birdy_56;3135278]I trust you have been absorbing the Holy Scriptures, and the Son of
God has opened your mind to understand what you are reading. God has given us both a Bible and knees. Learn to use them both
IMO, Mams is one of the most gifted persons here on scripture..He doesn't change it to suit his needs..He believes it say what it says and that God said it..When I have a question on scripture I go to Mams..We don't agree on everything, but I trust him to give me the truth about what the bible says..Never does he say the verse means something other than it is written..Never does he give his personal opinion..His creation/evolution debates are some of the best on this forum..He lines them up with the bible like no one else I have ever met..I believe Mams uses his bible and his knees more than most of us..he just doesn't boast...
I trust you have been absorbing the Holy Scriptures, and the Son of
God has opened your mind to understand what you are reading. God has given us both a Bible and knees. Learn to use them both
IMO, Mams is one of the most gifted persons here on scripture..He doesn't change it to suit his needs..He believes it say what it says and that God said it..When I have a question on scripture I go to Mams..We don't agree on everything, but I trust him to give me the truth about what the bible says..Never does he say the verse means something other than it is written..Never does he give his personal opinion..His creation/evolution debates are some of the best on this forum..He lines them up with the bible like no one else I have ever met..I believe Mams uses his bible and his knees more than most of us..he just doesn't boast...
You are so right blue about mams! I believe what mams posts on here lines up with God's Word. (and Alpha too)
IMO, Mams is one of the most gifted persons here on scripture..He doesn't change it to suit his needs..He believes it say what it says and that God said it..When I have a question on scripture I go to Mams..We don't agree on everything, but I trust him to give me the truth about what the bible says..Never does he say the verse means something other than it is written..Never does he give his personal opinion..His creation/evolution debates are some of the best on this forum..He lines them up with the bible like no one else I have ever met..I believe Mams uses his bible and his knees more than most of us..he just doesn't boast...
Anybody from Johnstown Pa. is worthy of paying attention too. Not quite as much as Shippensburg, Pa., but nonetheless, worth sitting up and being alert. I am sure Mams has spent many hours, days, and years in the Presence of the Burning One, and that after all, is what will qualify each of us as we wait before His Presence "with our Bible and our knees"! My response to Mams post goes quite beyond his relationship with the Lord, which I am sure is one of intense fellowship.
Madeleine L'Engle November 29, 1918 - Sept.7, 2007
Quote:
What I believe is so magnificent, so glorious, that it is beyond finite comprehension. To believe that the universe was created by a purposeful, benign Creator is one thing. To believe that this Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us, defies reason. It is so wild that it terrifies some Christians who try to dogmatize their fear by lashing out at other Christians, because tidy Christianity with all answers given is easier than one which reaches out to the wild wonder of God's love, a love we don't even have to earn. Madeleine L'Engle
You are so right blue about mams! I believe what mams posts on here lines up with God's Word. (and Alpha too)
-Charles S. Price-
"Christian experience is a great adventure. We never arrive at the finality of that walk or experience. No matter what mountain peak we climb today, there is always another one to be climbed a little way ahead. The future is greater than the past, for there are Elysian fields and meadows of glory that have never been explored. It is this great truth which presents such a challenge to the follower of the Lord Jesus. Under His leadership--for He never drives or coerces--we are priviledged to climb in spirit very near to the gates of a world that human eyes can not see; and are kept by the peace of God which passeth all understanding, through Jesus Christ. It is then we begin to comprehend the incomprehensible, and to watch the apocalypse of the mysteries that are hidden to so many."
IMO, there are no mysteries in the bible for thre christians who know the bible and trust the holy spirit to guide them..Know it alls always claim to know some deep dark secret in the bible that was meant for them only to interpret., their reward is only in how many people they can get to follow their teachings and thus build on their own pride and selfrighteousness.. This is a dangerous practice that forms cults, and other strange religions made up by man...This is exactly why I don't belong to any religion..I would rather spend 5 minutes with someone speaking from their heart and soul about their beliefs than page after page after page of copy and paste..
Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-14-2008 at 02:41 PM..
IMO, there are no mysteries in the bible for thre christians who know the bible and trust the holy spirit to guide them..Know it alls always claim to know some deep dark secret in the bible that was meant for them only to interpret., their reward is only in how many people they can get to follow their teachings and thus build on their own pride and selfrighteousness.. This is a dangerous practice that forms cults, and other strange religions made up by man...This is exactly why I don't belong to any religion..I would rather spend 5 minutes with someone speaking from their heart and soul about their beliefs than page after page after page of copy and paste..
June would be honored to spend 5 minutes with you any day, Blue.
IMO, there are no mysteries in the bible for thre christians who know the bible and trust the holy spirit to guide them.
I hardly consider Madeleine L' Engle, nor brother Charles Price "know it alls."
The fact is that there are numerous mysteries in the Bible, the word mystery being musthvrion, and meaning, a hidden thing, or a mystery.
There are many mysteries of the Lord's sacred secrets all around us, and most certainly in the written Word. They include the mystery of His will, the mystery of the Gospel, the mystery of the Christ,(including the mystery of Christ and His church), the mystery that we all shall be changed (metamorphoo), the mystery of godliness,(including the mystery of the faith), enunciate a few. Why, even blindness is great mystery.
The fact is Blue: the Scriptures require the Son of God to unfold by the Holy Ghost, and until He walks down our dusty road, and opens our understanding, we totter around at the mere edges of His glory. "Then opened He their understanding."
Quote:
Whenever a new vision is presented to the trusting soul a new crisis is created for that soul, and the soul will either obey and march into larger life, or disobey and turn backward. The man or woman who has the largest, fullest knowledge of Christ is the man or woman who is most conscious that he or she has hardly yet begun to see His glory. The Holy Spirit . . . is forever unveiling to the eyes of faithful, watching souls the glory of Christ; and as each new glory is revealed it calls the soul to some new adventure, to some new sacrifice . . . to some new area of spiritual growth. Every response to light means fuller understanding and enlarged capacity for further revelation. The true Christian life is a growth, which finds no maturity in this world; the ultimate is never reached in this land of shadows. There is no exhausting of the light and glory and beauty of Christ, and if He has not startled and shamed me recently it is because somewhere in the past I disobeyed and have lost my power to see. Sanctification is progressive, the Spirit of God patiently leading us from point to point in life of faith and light and love, and forevermore astonishing us with new unveilings of the glory of our Master. -G. Campbell Morgan-
The fact is Blue: the Scriptures require the Son of God to unfold by the Holy Ghost, and until He walks down our dusty road, and opens our understanding, we totter around at the mere edges of His glory. "Then opened He their understanding."
Birdy, I will really include you in my prayers I will pray that you come to Christ with the faith of a child, as he taught, and that you will come to see the words of Christ in its simplicity and love..There are no mysteries, my friend, only misunderstanding..
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but nonetheless, worth sitting up and being alert. I am sure Mams has spent many hours, days, and years in the Presence of the Burning One, and that after all, is what will qualify each of us as we wait before His Presence "with our Bible and our knees"! My response to Mams post goes quite beyond his relationship with the Lord, which I am sure is one of intense fellowship.
