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Old 02-02-2008, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,719,459 times
Reputation: 844

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradm View Post
Well, you may know that I'm new to this UR thing. I've yet to broach the subject with them. The day is coming, I expect. I am thoroughly convinced, but I'm doubtful they will be. My wife is the only person close to me I've discussed it with at this point. She still loves me

I have asked my Pastor about the verses that helped start it all for me - Rev 14: 9 - 11. He's didn't have a quick answer about the role of Jesus in the presence of those being tortured for ever. I didn't press him and he's not got back to me from nearly a month ago. I've posted on another thread what my commentaries say

This is a hard thing and I'm slow to change. All my closest friends are fundamentalists as I was for years. My Pastor is one of my best friends. Am I to try to convince him? Shall I just leave it alone? (rhetorical). For now I'm doing nothing.

To answer your question, I believe they are wrong when they say people will burn in hell forever. At least they already understand that meaning can change in a translation.

I appreciate your posts spm62. Your prayers in this matter would be appreciated too

Kind regards,
bradm
I had to laugh at the "she still loves me" comment. That's where my wife is at as well, having cut her teeth on the back of pews during hell fire sermons in the Assemblies of God church. Since sharing God's 'big picture' with her... she looks at me sideways sometimes, but she still loves me
I've known UR since '77 but spent 30 years in the ministry 'undercover' until last year when I saw my 16 year old daughter falling into a deep depression over being taught that God's perfect universe was hi-jacked by lucifer, resulting in eternal suffering for billions of humans who are too evil and stupid and blind to avoid it. The insanity of that concept is staggering (non to mention non-scriptural).
I resigned from my church and then went nose to nose (for five hours) w/my 20 year friend, employer and pastor (my daughter listened from down the hall as the action ebbed and flowed - internally shouting a victorious "YES!" every time my answers and points seemed powerful or irrefutable).
Bottom line, there is a season for every purpose under the sun. When the non-sense gets overwhelming enough you will not care what the reactions are, and you will give your closest friends something new to think about.
Life is fun, specially for those who believe!
- byron

Last edited by firstborn888; 02-02-2008 at 01:05 AM.. Reason: clarification

 
Old 02-02-2008, 03:51 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,459,607 times
Reputation: 371
Acts 3:21

Quote:
Who is to be kept in heaven till the time when all things are put right, of which God has given word by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been from the earliest times. (BBE)
**** "Until final recovery of all things from sin." -Kenneth Taylor-

**** "Until the whole world is re-created." -RIEU-

**** "When all is restored anew." -Monsig. Ronald Knox-

**** "When all things are put right." -BAS-

**** "Of the great restoration." -James Moffatt-

What do the prophets say?

"The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen.....Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent, shoulder to shoulder."

1. All the isles of the "heathen" shall worship Him.

2. All men shall worship Him "from his place."

3. All nations shall be gathered, all kingdoms gathered to the devouring fire of the Lord. For what purpose?

4. I will give all heathen, all men, all nations purified lips. To what end?

5. That all of them may call upon the Lord.

6. And the calling upon the Name of the Lord finalizes in all of them serving the Lord "with one consent."

Quote:
I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of East and West, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to Heaven, and Heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world is King!
Sing it HERE
 
Old 02-02-2008, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Just a few miles outside of St. Louis
1,921 posts, read 5,167,312 times
Reputation: 1190
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
I've known UR since '77 but spent 30 years in the ministry 'undercover' until last year when I saw my 16 year old daughter falling into a deep depression over being taught that God's perfect universe was hi-jacked by lucifer, resulting in eternal suffering for billions of humans who are too evil and stupid and blind to avoid it. The insanity of that concept is staggering (non to mention non-scriptural).
I resigned from my church and then went nose to nose (for five hours) w/my 20 year friend, employer and pastor (my daughter listened from down the hall as the action ebbed and flowed - internally shouting a victorious "YES!" every time my answers and points seemed powerful or irrefutable).
"...hijacked by Lucifer...", is an interesting way to put it. One of the reasons that I eventually accepted that universal reconciliation made more sense than eternal hell was it because it became very clear to me, that eternal hell made God a failure. Essentially, it put Satan in the lead, if you will, (you know, something like: God, half a billion; Satan, five and half billion. "And, Satan score again!"). I just decided that it definitely did not make God victorious, if he lost the majority of his creation. It reminds me of growing up on our ranch. If we had lost the majority of our cows, only managing to get one or two of them safely to market, we surely wouldn't have considered ourselves very successful, as ranchers, (not to mention that we would have soon been bankrupted).

I realilze that to our "eternal hell" friends here, that may seem like a simplistic argument, but as I have said before on other threads about UR, I believe in logic and common sense, even when it comes to spiritual matters. Although, I was recently asked on this forum something to the effect, "what does logic have to do with anything"? Which I thought was peculiar, because I always figured that God expects us to use our brains, since he gave them to us. I see nothing wrong with employing good old-fashioned horse sense with reading, study, and prayer. If our Creator did not expect us to think things out, he wouldn't have placed the ability in us. Even animals have the ability to think and reason! And, before any of our "hell-minded" friends get perturbed, I'm not saying that you don't think, as you study, etc. Most of you on here are quite intelligent, well-educated people, and well-versed in your Bibles, (many of you could run circles around me, scripturally). I just found that comment to be odd, and it isn't the first time I've heard something like it, over the years.

So, Firstborn, if you don't mind my asking, how did your 20-year friend, employer, and pastor take your argument for UR?
 
Old 02-02-2008, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,663,859 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticLady1 View Post
"...hijacked by Lucifer...", is an interesting way to put it. One of the reasons that I eventually accepted that universal reconciliation made more sense than eternal hell was it because it became very clear to me, that eternal hell made God a failure. Essentially, it put Satan in the lead, if you will, (you know, something like: God, half a billion; Satan, five and half billion. "And, Satan score again!"). I just decided that it definitely did not make God victorious, if he lost the majority of his creation. It reminds me of growing up on our ranch. If we had lost the majority of our cows, only managing to get one or two of them safely to market, we surely wouldn't have considered ourselves very successful, as ranchers, (not to mention that we would have soon been bankrupted).

I realilze that to our "eternal hell" friends here, that may seem like a simplistic argument, but as I have said before on other threads about UR, I believe in logic and common sense, even when it comes to spiritual matters. Although, I was recently asked on this forum something to the effect, "what does logic have to do with anything"? Which I thought was peculiar, because I always figured that God expects us to use our brains, since he gave them to us. I see nothing wrong with employing good old-fashioned horse sense with reading, study, and prayer. If our Creator did not expect us to think things out, he wouldn't have placed the ability in us. Even animals have the ability to think and reason! And, before any of our "hell-minded" friends get perturbed, I'm not saying that you don't think, as you study, etc. Most of you on here are quite intelligent, well-educated people, and well-versed in your Bibles, (many of you could run circles around me, scripturally). I just found that comment to be odd, and it isn't the first time I've heard something like it, over the years.

So, Firstborn, if you don't mind my asking, how did your 20-year friend, employer, and pastor take your argument for UR?
Eternal hell to me does not mean that God has placed one there eternally or even temporarily. God damns no ones progress. Man/woman does that to themselves.

Essentially hell can be eternal for those that choose not to grow into God's ways, His kingdom. Athough eventually the plight may end up as Satan's eventual fate, being swallowed up by the second death. Or having all your personage, and elements absorbed back into the base element of creation. Nothingness.
Eternal in this respect is relative to choice, not so much punishment.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-02-2008, 05:54 PM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,459,607 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Eternal hell to me does not mean that God has placed one there eternally or even temporarily. God damns no ones progress. Man/woman does that to themselves.
Search= "Eternal hell"
Quote:
Your search query for 'eternal hell' has yielded no results. Please modify your query and try again.
"Institutional Christianity is addicted to the idea that for things to work out right between us and God, "we have to do our part," and if we do, then "God will do His part." That makes God dependent upon us "getting it right" before He can get on with His purpose and will. At the heart of our flesh's alienation from God, at the heart of our blindness and ignorance, is the desire to get credited for "holding up our part of the deal." We like the idea of grace, as long as the successful operation of grace is attributable to us "letting God" do what He wants to do." -John Gavazzoni-
 
Old 02-02-2008, 06:01 PM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,459,607 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Essentially hell can be eternal for those that choose not to grow into God's ways, His kingdom. Athough eventually the plight may end up as Satan's eventual fate, being swallowed up by the second death. Or having all your personage, and elements absorbed back into the base element of creation. Nothingness. Eternal in this respect is relative to choice, not so much punishment.

godspeed,

freedom
Well, my friend, evidently the apostle St. Paul was unable to grasp what you have posted. He has penned by the Holy One.....

Quote:
From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends.
Or, if you prefer.... "Source, Guide and Goal of all that is."

That is the whole enchilada, the ta pavnte, the all has its source, and goal in the One from whom everything comes.

This is Christ's own declaration, 'I will draw all men unto me.' Therein consists its potency for men: not in Christ's satisfaction of justice by suffering a legal penalty, but in that the cross is the supreme expression of a divine spirit of love, truth, mercy, brotherhood, faith, ministry, unselfishness, holiness, - a spirit which goes out to men with divine intensity of purpose and yearning to draw them into its own sphere, and to make them partakers of its own eternal quality. This was a fact before the foundation of the world, is a fact today, and will be a fact so long as any life remains unreconciled to God. Atonement is eternal in virtue of the eternal spirit of Christ through which he offered himself to God. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-
 
Old 02-02-2008, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,663,859 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Well, my friend, evidently the apostle St. Paul was unable to grasp what you have posted. He has penned by the Holy One.....



Or, if you prefer.... "Source, Guide and Goal of all that is."

That is the whole enchilada, the ta pavnte, the all has its source, and goal in the One from whom everything comes.

This is Christ's own declaration, 'I will draw all men unto me.' Therein consists its potency for men: not in Christ's satisfaction of justice by suffering a legal penalty, but in that the cross is the supreme expression of a divine spirit of love, truth, mercy, brotherhood, faith, ministry, unselfishness, holiness, - a spirit which goes out to men with divine intensity of purpose and yearning to draw them into its own sphere, and to make them partakers of its own eternal quality. This was a fact before the foundation of the world, is a fact today, and will be a fact so long as any life remains unreconciled to God. Atonement is eternal in virtue of the eternal spirit of Christ through which he offered himself to God. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-
I think it more accurate to say that some men have not interpretted Paul's writings correctly, i'll stick with the simple words of Christ.

If you love me, keep my commandments....If any man says He loves me and keeps not my commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Not every man that sayeth lord, lord... shall enter into the kingdom of God, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven.

Looks like Jesus said, no one gets into His Fathers Kingdom without living and keeping His words...


godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-03-2008, 01:16 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,318,716 times
Reputation: 1786
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
I think it more accurate to say that some men have not interpretted Paul's writings correctly, i'll stick with the simple words of Christ.
Absolutely

Quote:
If you love me, keep my commandments....If any man says He loves me and keeps not my commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Not every man that sayeth lord, lord... shall enter into the kingdom of God, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven.

Looks like Jesus said, no one gets into His Fathers Kingdom without living and keeping His words...
If I may comment.

Which commandments are these?

Where is the kingdom for you?

How does one aspire to any of this w/o at least first hearing?

Blessings
 
Old 02-03-2008, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,663,859 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Absolutely



If I may comment.

Which commandments are these?
The greatest 2 are the fulfillment of all, if you love with all your heart mind and soul, you will live all the commandments. Including the top 10. They won't even be an issue. To break those, one would not be living the ones of love.
Quote:
Where is the kingdom for you?
Within, we are the temples of God.

Quote:
How does one aspire to any of this w/o at least first hearing?
The still small voice within thee...

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-03-2008, 11:24 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,318,716 times
Reputation: 1786
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
The greatest 2 are the fulfillment of all, if you love with all your heart mind and soul, you will live all the commandments. Including the top 10. They won't even be an issue. To break those, one would not be living the ones of love.

Within, we are the temples of God.

The still small voice within thee...

godspeed,

freedom
A second Amen and Hellelujah
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