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Old 02-03-2008, 03:45 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,156,126 times
Reputation: 1329

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Quote:
Shana, you have such a gentle spirit and you are always so polite and respectful of others beliefs and opinions. Of course you know from my previous posts I disagree with you on this. I believe the Bible teaches that hell is eternal separation from God, that is why Jesus came and died on the cross, so we could escape it, if we choose to, it's our choice. If God was going to reconcile everyone in the end to Himself then why did Jesus die such an excruciating death for us, I do believe some people will spent eternity there and that is very sad. Christ's desire is to rescue us from that and His love for us motivated Him to die for us.
Hi, I didn't realize that this old thread had been revived until today, have been sick for the past few days Thanks ILNC for your kind words. I believe that Jesus died for us because this is how God planned it. Jesus died this excruciating death for all us, not just for those who accept Him, right? I don't believe that in all that Jesus suffered, He ends up with a mere handful while the enemy takes the majority, and I also believe that this is presented in the scriptures, ILNC. If He died for all, He deserves all. He was sent to be the Savior of all. Is satan or the creature's will able to defeat the will of God, who will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth? The majority are unable to choose Jesus anyway, having never heard of Him. And those who reject are said to be blinded. But the True Light which enlightens every man has come into the world. Thanks for sharing and God bless.

 
Old 02-03-2008, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,725,892 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticLady1 View Post

So, Firstborn, if you don't mind my asking, how did your 20-year friend, employer, and pastor take your argument for UR?
Well, I under-estimated the man. 20 years of life lived in/by the Spirit of God in front of someone is difficult to dismiss offhand so he is checking out all my claims. Frankly, I expected a rebuke - first privately and then publicly, but it didn't happen.

It's funny, because as God has revealed His nature over the last century we've gone from God gleefully executing His righteous judgment of eternal torment to a God who regretfully 'allows' people to choose eternal torment. Of course, the latter is not scriptural (as well as the former) because God's righteous judgments are perfect and awesome and worthy to be rejoiced over.

But, since it is inconceivable to those who actually know God's nature that the lake of fire (in it's traditional perspective) is a happy occasion 'they' (believers in eternal torment) must believe that it's a sorrowful occasion. When the mystery is revealed that God's fiery fury against evil is the best thing ever (look at what comes directly after the LOF in Rev. 22) then the confusion over this dissolves.

I really do empathize with those who can't accept this, as it is so radically different from what the church has taught for so long AND from how certain scriptures read to the carnal mind.

All flesh is grass. When the Spirit of God blows upon it - watch out.

Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
8 But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore.


Psalms 102:11 My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass.


Psalms 103:15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. 16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.



- blessings,
Byron
 
Old 02-03-2008, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,725,892 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
The majority are unable to choose Jesus anyway, having never heard of Him. And those who reject are said to be blinded.
Shana, I appreciate your comments and insights. I too get rebuked for using common sense about spiritual matters.

Psalm 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.

Now that makes sense. Who punishes someone forever for no remedial purpose whatsoever? It's absolute insanity, and yet some say "Well, His ways are higher than ours - we can't understand them". I always answer "Yes, His ways are higher - not infinitely more barbaric!"

I praise God that Godly reason and truth will prevail in the end, yes, and good fiery judgment...
blessings,
- byron
 
Old 02-03-2008, 05:55 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,156,126 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Shana, I appreciate your comments and insights. I too get rebuked for using common sense about spiritual matters.

Psalm 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.

Now that makes sense. Who punishes someone forever for no remedial purpose whatsoever? It's absolute insanity, and yet some say "Well, His ways are higher than ours - we can't understand them". I always answer "Yes, His ways are higher - not infinitely more barbaric!"

I praise God that Godly reason and truth will prevail in the end, yes, and good fiery judgment...
blessings,
- byron
Thanks for sharing, Byron. I agree that all of God's fiery judgments have a higher purpose. I don't believe that He will lose anyone. All were made for Jesus. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-03-2008 at 06:04 PM..
 
Old 02-03-2008, 09:23 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,156,126 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
In the Book of Acts we read regarding the final recovery of all things from sin, or if you like, when all things are put right, or restored anew.

Acts 3:21

**** "Until final recovery of all things from sin." -Kenneth Taylor-

**** "Until the whole world is re-created." -RIEU-

**** "When all is restored anew." -Monsig. Ronald Knox-

**** "When all things are put right." -BAS-

**** "Of the great restoration." -James Moffatt-

Quote:
Who is to be kept in heaven till the time when all things are put right, of which God has given word by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been from the earliest times. (BBE)
Whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began. (Darby)

Quote:
Heaven must receive him until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets. Matt. 17:11; Luke 1:70; Acts 1:11 (ISV)
Whom, indeed, heaven must retain till the time of the accomplishment of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, from the beginning of time. (Living Oracles)

Whom the heavens must receive until the time of restoration of all things. "God spoke of this ages ago, through the mouth of his holy prophets. (Montgomery)

Whom the heavens must retain, until the completion of the times of those things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets of old. (Murdock)

Unto whom, indeed, heaven must needs give welcome, until the times of the due establishment of all things, of which God hath spoken through the mouth of his holy age-past prophets. (Rotherham)

Quote:
Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things. (F. Weymouth)
Apokatastasis= Restitution=

Re-establishment from a state of ruin (Of a perfect state before the fall of Adam. The kindred verb is "to restore" (see Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T.)....the same as regeneration in Matt. 19:28

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincent.htm]HERE[/url]

Apokatastasis Rooted In Apokathistemi

Apokathistemi=

To restore to its former state.

Regeneration=

The making of all things new. The restoration of Acts 3:21= the "when" of the next clause.

"And this is in harmony with Gods merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Please Note:

Apokatastasewv in linked with palingenesia

Palingenesia ="new birth"

Palin= "again,"

Genesis= "birth"

Used of "spiritual regeneration," Titus 3:5, involving the communication of a new life.
Thanks for sharing, Birdy. God bless.
 
Old 02-03-2008, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Iowa
55 posts, read 100,515 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
... Now that makes sense. Who punishes someone forever for no remedial purpose whatsoever? It's absolute insanity, and yet some say "Well, His ways are higher than ours - we can't understand them". I always answer "Yes, His ways are higher - not infinitely more barbaric!" ...
I've heard this verse time and again. It's the answer to all those doctrines that don't make sense. I've used it myself that way. For a while it would kind of make my eyes glaze over and and I'd say to myself, "Somehow I must just not understand. I'll keep trusting." Finally there's an answer!

ShanaBrown - Glad you're feeling better. I missed your posts.
 
Old 02-04-2008, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Just a few miles outside of St. Louis
1,921 posts, read 5,170,651 times
Reputation: 1190
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Well, I under-estimated the man. 20 years of life lived in/by the Spirit of God in front of someone is difficult to dismiss offhand so he is checking out all my claims. Frankly, I expected a rebuke - first privately and then publicly, but it didn't happen.
Whether or not the gentleman accepts what you told him about universal reconciliation, at least he is willing to take a closer look at it. Which is all that those of us who believe in UR, can ask of any traditional-believing Christian. Obviously, we cannot make them accept or believe it, anymore than they can force us to go back to believing in an eternal hell. But, I appreciate anyone who will read, study, pray, and "think on these things", with a reasonably open mind, that perhaps, just perhaps, our Creator has better things in store for everyone; that no one will be lost to him forever. Of course, we can hope, (and prefer), that he would realize that there is more to the Good News than what the Church has taught for all these hundreds of years. Or, at the least, that he won't be buying a rail, tar, and feathers, or worse!
 
Old 02-04-2008, 08:03 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,666,830 times
Reputation: 968
UR makes sense to the reasoning mind.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Different times I have heard people who turn to UR say.... "the fact that most people are going to eternal punishment just didn't make sense to me". Then, verses are quoted talking about the sovereignity of God, how everything works out to His purpose.

This is a contradiction!

If God is sovereign, His ways don't need to be "reasoned". In fact, UR tramples on the sovereignity of God, as it pretends to lift Him up! Everything will work out to God's purpose. God's purpose is to have volunteers serve Him... and He will take care of doing the calling and the judging. We don't need to try to help Him figure it out.
Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
God has promised that those who turn to Him will find mercy. He is calling all men. He will perform it.

Let's not put God in a little box.
 
Old 02-04-2008, 08:09 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,270,658 times
Reputation: 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
UR makes sense to the reasoning mind.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Different times I have heard people who turn to UR say.... "the fact that most people are going to eternal punishment just didn't make sense to me". Then, verses are quoted talking about the sovereignity of God, how everything works out to His purpose.

This is a contradiction!



If God is sovereign, His ways don't need to be "reasoned". In fact, UR tramples on the sovereignity of God, as it pretends to lift Him up! Everything will work out to God's purpose. God's purpose is to have volunteers serve Him... and He will take care of doing the calling and the judging. We don't need to try to help Him figure it out.
Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
God has promised that those who turn to Him will find mercy. He is calling all men. He will perform it.

Let's not put God in a little box.
Amen cg81!
 
Old 02-04-2008, 08:19 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,325,858 times
Reputation: 1786
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
UR makes sense to the reasoning mind.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Different times I have heard people who turn to UR say.... "the fact that most people are going to eternal punishment just didn't make sense to me". Then, verses are quoted talking about the sovereignity of God, how everything works out to His purpose.

This is a contradiction!


If God is sovereign, His ways don't need to be "reasoned". In fact, UR tramples on the sovereignity of God, as it pretends to lift Him up! Everything will work out to God's purpose. God's purpose is to have volunteers serve Him... and He will take care of doing the calling and the judging. We don't need to try to help Him figure it out.
Service and salvation are two different things. Ironically, Calvinists, Preterists and Armenianists all inhabit the CU camp, so set doctrine is not the common denominator. It is no sin to question doctrine, we were not told to check our brains in the day we got saved.
Quote:
Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Quote:
God has promised that those who turn to Him will find mercy. He is calling all men. He will perform it.

Let's not put God in a little box.
I think your understanding of CU beliefs may be limited. You will be amazed how many came to the realisation and the various ways.

Questions:
Was your salvation conditional on anything you did?

Did you choose to be in Adam?

If salvation depended on anything we can think or do, that IMO puts God-in-a-box.

Ironically your Romans 4:21 proof text is also a CU proof text.

Blessings
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