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Old 11-29-2013, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Clanton, AL
668 posts, read 266,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Do you believe the spirit of God is joined to you or in you unattached ?.
Do you believe Jesus lied?
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:45 AM
 
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Mike555,

re: "Eusebius, you may want to reconsider the direction you've set with your post. In my opinion, telling someone that because they believe the Bible teaches eternal punishment..."

He didn't say eternal punishment - he said eternally torture. For some reason you want to believe that the word "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means torture when there is no cause to do that. The end of the verse contrasts eternal punishment with eternal life. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, so why not rather believe that the "punishment" mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is a sentence of eternal death?
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:03 AM
 
10,764 posts, read 5,208,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
If you don't like the consequences of sin , I suggest you don't sin, furthermore if it bothers you that much it might be prudent to show other the consequences for sin, so they would to have to suffer as well.
OH wait a minuet you all don't like being warned of consequences I forgot,
Never mind .
arleigh, who ever said I don't like the consequences of sin. Of course God is going to judge (set right) everything mankind does wrong. But eternally torture them? The very conscience God gave us revolts as such a heinous idea.

Never in all the bible did God ever tell mankind that the consequences of sin is eternal torture or eternal torment. No, not even once. Why? Because that is not in His nature to do such a diabolical thing.

God even told the Israelites how horrible it was for them to burn their children in the valley of Hinnom. He said it never even entered His mind for them to do such a despicable thing. So why would He do that which He would never have others do?
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:15 AM
 
10,764 posts, read 5,208,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
Man must realize he is not God. He is not equal to God. He cannot judge God. Just as our earthly parents have rights to do things their children are not so it is with God. This idea that God must conform to your idea of what is right and wrong is rebellion against God and evidence of where you place God in your life. Step down from your self created thrown and let God be God.
God put His conscience in every human. This conscience does this:
who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,

We have been given the conscience by God, to know right from wrong. I am not conforming God to my idea but to the very conscience He put within me. This is why the world revolts at the so-called "gospel" of Christiandom. They know a loving God would never do that which Christianity says He will because God put His conscience within them.

Divine revelation through His Scriptures also tells us God would never do that which Christendumb says He will.

As humans with a good conscience, we know right from wrong and know if a parent TORTURES his child that that is WRONG. We revolt as such a terrible parent. God put that conscience within us to know that is wrong.

What's a self created thrown? I didn't throw anything.
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:35 AM
 
Location: RI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
Do you believe Jesus lied?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Do you believe the spirit of God is joined to you or in you unattached ?.
The reason I asked you this, is because if you are joined by spirit, then you will also be casting your loved ones that do not believe into eternal torment with God too. Unless of cause you believe you are not one in spirit.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:40 AM
Status: "God saves ALL" (set 11 days ago)
 
5,972 posts, read 2,976,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Mike555,

re: "Eusebius, you may want to reconsider the direction you've set with your post. In my opinion, telling someone that because they believe the Bible teaches eternal punishment..."

He didn't say eternal punishment - he said eternally torture. For some reason you want to believe that the word "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means torture when there is no cause to do that. The end of the verse contrasts eternal punishment with eternal life. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, so why not rather believe that the "punishment" mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is a sentence of eternal death?
You make a great point here. Why is that those in the ET crowd equate "eternal punishment" with being eternal torment. After all punishment doesn't have to equate to torment. If someone were annhilated then that would be an eternal punishment but not a an eternal torment. I'm hoping that those that believe in Eternal Torment could address why it is that they equate eternal punishment = eternal torment.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:06 AM
 
10,764 posts, read 5,208,354 times
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trettep, I could be mistaken but I think the ETer believes that when an unbeliever dies that they automatically go to hell. They read the PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus and apply the outcome of the rich man to every human who ever lived who was an unbeliever.

The rich man was, in Luke 16:23 "existing in torment," and was "pained in this flame" in verse 26. However in verse 22 the rich man was entombed (that's what Hades is, it is the grave or tomb).

They see a gulf which is impassable between the rich man and Abraham's bosom as impassable and read into that "eternal."

But they should ask some questions concerning this parable:
1. What tomb has flames in it, or a river or a great gulf?
2. What person, when they die, live on in another existence prior to the resurrection?
3. if a person lives on when they die, why even the need for a resurrection?
4. Do people, such as the rich man, really get torment for the sole reason (which Abraham gave in the parable) of getting good things in this life? Do people, such as poor Lazarus get comforted in Abraham's bosom for the sole reason of getting evil things in this life?
5. Is receiving evil things in this life the poor man's SAVIOUR? rather than Christ dying for their sins?

The PARABLE of the rich man and lazarus was pointed at the Pharisees and scribes. They were dressed in fine attire and feasted while ignoring the poor of Israel. But Jesus is going to turn the tables on them when He returns and the Pharisees and scribes find themselves kicked out of Christ's earthly kingdom in Israel while the poor remain.

You see, there really is no such thing as eternal torment. It is just a misunderstanding of the things Christ said and some using poorly translated Bibles.

Jesus reflected the heart of His Father and we know He would never torture anyone.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:32 AM
Status: "God saves ALL" (set 11 days ago)
 
5,972 posts, read 2,976,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
trettep, I could be mistaken but I think the ETer believes that when an unbeliever dies that they automatically go to hell. They read the PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus and apply the outcome of the rich man to every human who ever lived who was an unbeliever.

The rich man was, in Luke 16:23 "existing in torment," and was "pained in this flame" in verse 26. However in verse 22 the rich man was entombed (that's what Hades is, it is the grave or tomb).

They see a gulf which is impassable between the rich man and Abraham's bosom as impassable and read into that "eternal."

But they should ask some questions concerning this parable:
1. What tomb has flames in it, or a river or a great gulf?
2. What person, when they die, live on in another existence prior to the resurrection?
3. if a person lives on when they die, why even the need for a resurrection?
4. Do people, such as the rich man, really get torment for the sole reason (which Abraham gave in the parable) of getting good things in this life? Do people, such as poor Lazarus get comforted in Abraham's bosom for the sole reason of getting evil things in this life?
5. Is receiving evil things in this life the poor man's SAVIOUR? rather than Christ dying for their sins?

The PARABLE of the rich man and lazarus was pointed at the Pharisees and scribes. They were dressed in fine attire and feasted while ignoring the poor of Israel. But Jesus is going to turn the tables on them when He returns and the Pharisees and scribes find themselves kicked out of Christ's earthly kingdom in Israel while the poor remain.

You see, there really is no such thing as eternal torment. It is just a misunderstanding of the things Christ said and some using poorly translated Bibles.

Jesus reflected the heart of His Father and we know He would never torture anyone.
The Rich man in the parable is actually the Jewish High Priest who actually did have 5 brothers. And poor man (the leper) is the same Lazarus that Jesus rose from the dead who is brother to Mary and Martha.
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Old 11-29-2013, 12:28 PM
 
12,916 posts, read 6,992,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
In a book I have, the question is broached: Can we call what is "bad" in man "good" in God?

God has given us all consciences. These consciences accuse or defend according to:

Rom 2:15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,...

If your conscience revolts at a human father torturing his own children in fire, if your conscience revolts at any man torturing another human, it is because God put that conscience in every human. This conscience is reflective of the very nature of a good God. The only reason one would not revolt is because their conscience has been cauterized.

1Ti_4:2 in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized;"

If you are not revolted by a teaching that God is going to eternally torture people in literal fire, it has to be your conscience has failed to the degree you accept that teaching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is supported in the Bible verse he cited, Mike. That is no different than your tactics.
1 Timothy 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

The ET'ers reject their own "consciences" (the guidance of the Holy Spirit) using the "doctrine of devils" that says if God does it . . . it must be Good no matter what our conscience says (= hypocrisy).
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
You might reconsider what he actually wrote. But to be honest I think you fully understood his post and because you are without defense you start to act as a victim in the hope the inconvenient truth goes away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If those who hold the viewpoint shared by the three posters above are to be consistent in the application of that viewpoint, then they must of necessity apply it to Jesus as well, because it was He who said,
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels . . . "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41, 46
Jesus is of course speaking of Himself as the judge who will command the accursed ones to depart from Him into the eternal fire.

The argument being promoted on this thread which attempts to discredit the Biblically taught doctrine of eternal punishment does so by making claims regarding those who believe that doctrine. To state that those who believe what the Bible says concerning eternal punishment have a seared conscience and are hypocrites does not negate the simple fact that passages in the Bible do indeed speak of eternal punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
God is spirit. Do you believe that the same spirit of God that is in you is capable of releasing eternal hell upon you?. I hope you realize by what you believe that God is going to release this hell through you who actually believe it. Not to,God would have to remove himself from you and say to you step aside a moment while I release hell upon these folk, and if this is the case without God's spirit in you looking upon this scenario you would die in fear on the spot. Which by the way this kind of belief and portrayal of God is killing Christians spiritual and mentally.

If you do not have it in you to be honest enough to question that loved ones that do not believe are going to end up eternally punished, but rather just dismiss it into the deep recesses of your being, I find that something you should be concerned about.

In saying that, I understand to a degree why you would accept loved ones in eternal torment for their unbelief, because you are convinced this is what you are saved from yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, the conscience God gave to mankind, which is in fact God's understanding of what is right and wrong, good and evil, should, if your conscience was intact or uncorrupted, tell you there must be something horribly wrong with the verse you quoted in Matthew 25:41,16.
Instead of investigating the problems with those verses, you just willy nilly rely upon a corrupted ***version*** or should I say ***perversion*** of the Sacred Scriptures.
Since the verses go contrary to the very conscience God gave us, we need to investigate whether the verses were translated correctly. I can assure you, they were not. I, and others here have explained to you over and over that aionios cannot possibly mean "eternal." You reject the truth of this. You reject the truth that God cannot possibly torture any human for eternity. Therefore I can only conclude that you:
1.have no conscience or
2.have a conscience but it is defiled
Here is the Greek of verse 41. I will bold the problem area of your perversion:

(GNT)
Τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων· πορεύεσθε ἀπ᾿ ἐμοῦ οἱ κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ.

The bold is "into the fire the eonian."

Here are some proper translation of the above Greek and which harmonize with the laws of language pertaining to the Greek and harmonize with the conscience God gave us:

(Weymouth NT)
"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

(Young's Literal Translation)
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

(Concordant Literal New Testament)

Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."[/SIZE]
And here is verse 46:

(GNT-TR)
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
And the proper translations of the above verse:

(WNT) "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
(YLT) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
(CLV) And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Do you see what is absent from the above verses? The word "torture." God does not torture any human in fire.

κολασιν (Kolasin), Punishment or chastening was used by the Greeks of Christ's day as being REMEDIAL.

Mike, the above verses have to do with NATIONS like Iraq or Russia or the United States for example. If, during the great tribulation, any nation harms Christ's brethren then that NATION as a whole will pay the price when Christ sets up His 1000 year reign on earth. Those nations will be ruled with a rod of iron. This is to train them, to remediate them.

"The Adversary and his messengers" should be understood as "the adversary NATION and its couriers." These goat nations will send out couriers (messengers) with letters to persecute Christ's brethren. Since they caused Christ's brethren to go through the fire (in a figurative way) it is not these nations turn to go through the figurative fire.

Now then, a conscience which is not corrupt, not seared, a conscience which is good, will agree with the above because it is in harmony with the nature of God which is all the fruits of the Spirit.
In continuing with the theme of the OP, Pcamps implys a lack of self-honesty on the part of those who believe what the Bible says concerning eternal punishment. This does not negate the simple fact that Jesus Himself taught eternal punishment.


The OP then appeals to the tired old argument that the Greek word 'aionios' cannot mean 'eternal' when in fact the context determines whether 'aionios' is used for a finite period of time or is used in the sense of unending duration. For instance, God Holy Sprit is called the eternal Spirit in Hebrews 9:14.
Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aiónios) Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The adjective aiónios modifies the noun Spirit. Therefore the Spirit cannot be more than the meaning of the adjective. Since the Holy Spirit is God, and God is eternal, then the adjective aiónios cannot mean anything less than eternal.

And again, in Romans 16:26, reference is made to the eternal God.
Rom. 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiónios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
Again, 'aiónios' is an adjective and modifies the noun 'Theou - God'. Aiónios is an adjective of duration which thereby modifies the duration of God. If aiónios is restricted to a finite period of time in the verse then God is not the eternal God, but is only an age lasting God.

Now, if in an attempt to get around this, the claim is made that Romans 16:26 is saying that God is the 'God of the ages', then the word aiónios becomes a noun instead of an adjective, and instead of modifying the duration of God, becomes what God is sovereign over. And that of course changes the meaning of the verse to something other than what Paul intended to convey.

In Matthew 25:46, eternal (aiónios) punishment is contrasted with eternal (aiónios) life. In both cases, aiónios is an adjective which modifies the nouns 'punishment' and 'life'. Since eternal life always refers to life lived in the presence of God, then in contrast, eternal punishment refers to existence in separation from God. It is not said that the punishment and separation from God is temporary. Revelation 20:10 states that the punishment is for the ages of the ages which is the most emphatic way of referring to unending duration. In Revelation 20:10 it is said of the beast and the false prophet who will have already been in the lake of fire for a thousand years by the time that Satan joins them there, that they will be tormented for ever and ever - for the ages of the ages.

In the following excerpt, Alan W. Gomes refers to both Hermann Sasse and R. C. H. Lenski regarding the meaning of eis tous aionan ton aionon - forever and ever.
The Duration of Punishment in Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10. In the most emphatic language possible, we are told that the torment is unending. When we considered Matthew 25:46 above, we noted that aionos can, in some contexts, qualify nouns of limited duration. (Though, as we also observed, the context of Matthew 25 demands that we take aionios in its unlimited signification there.) But here, we find the emphatic forms eis aionas aionon and eis tous aionas ton aionon ("unto the ages of the ages"). This construction is only used to describe unending duration. As Sasse points out, the "twofold use of the term [aionios]" is designed "to emphasize the concept of eternity."[51] The fact that the forms used are plural in number further reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Speaking of the Greek construction in this verse, the great biblical commentator R. C. H. Lenski observes: "The strongest expression for our `forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, `for the eons of eons'; many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by `forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones."[52] CRI Journal - CRJ0085A

And Eusebius, it is the judgment of individuals within the Gentile nations who, having survived to the end of the Tribulation, will be judged at the Judgment of the nations which will take place after the Tribulation. Believers will enter into the Millennial kingdom while unbelievers will be taken off the earth and into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41,46 may refer to the ultimate destination of this group of unbelievers who will more immediately be sent to the 'torments' side of Hades, or it may mean that they will go directly to the lake of fire as will be the case with both the beast and the false prophet as stated in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10.

The rejection of the Biblical teaching of eternal punishment is not based on a sound understanding of the Scriptures but on the wishful thinking of those who simply will not accept what the Bible says, and who do not have a proper understanding of the Scriptures which they think support their position.

Last edited by Mike555; 11-29-2013 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 11-29-2013, 12:35 PM
 
12,916 posts, read 6,992,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Mike555,

re: "Eusebius, you may want to reconsider the direction you've set with your post. In my opinion, telling someone that because they believe the Bible teaches eternal punishment..."

He didn't say eternal punishment - he said eternally torture. For some reason you want to believe that the word "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means torture when there is no cause to do that. The end of the verse contrasts eternal punishment with eternal life. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, so why not rather believe that the "punishment" mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is a sentence of eternal death?
Universalists reject the fact that the Bible teaches that unbelievers will be eternally separated from God. They are not annihilated but exist in a state of conscious torment as indicated in Revelation 20:10. Refer to post #31.

Also, the word 'death' refers to separation. Not to non-existence. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, while spiritual death is separation from God. A person is born physically alive but spiritually dead. If a person dies without ever having believed on Jesus Christ for eternal salvation then his spiritual death is perpetuated forever in the lake of fire which is the second death - eternal separation from God where there is no blessing, but only suffering and torment.
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