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I would not use torture, it is evil,
I can't be more peaceful or merciful than gods son therefor Eternal Torture is a false teaching.
Those who accept Eternal Torture are claiming that Torture is alright,
that there is nothing wrong with doing it, and these people do not serve a good god.
Eusebius, you may want to reconsider the direction you've set with your post. In my opinion, telling someone that because they believe the Bible teaches eternal punishment there must therefore be something wrong with them is bordering on bashing someone because of their beliefs.
You might reconsider what he actually wrote. But to be honest I think you fully understood his post and because you are without defense you start to act as a victim in the hope the inconvenient truth goes away.
Your God is too small. If you ever realize the holiness of God you will change your tune.
Question though....why do you call sinful men "Gods children"? The Bible says they are children of the devil.
I did, that is when I realized too that the same spirit(of the same state of mind)in me that was in Christ Jesus was not capable of thinking never mind doing that which much of Christendom believes is going to be done by him to unbelievers, and for those who have interpreted the bible falsely.
The sinful man you refer to is your terrible twin, the one Christians(the brother of the prodigal) excuse because they're not perfect and still sin themselves, but for some unknown reason will not excuse in those they believe are sinners.
In a book I have, the question is broached: Can we call what is "bad" in man "good" in God?
God has given us all consciences. These consciences accuse or defend according to:
Rom 2:15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,...
If your conscience revolts at a human father torturing his own children in fire, if your conscience revolts at any man torturing another human, it is because God put that conscience in every human. This conscience is reflective of the very nature of a good God. The only reason one would not revolt is because their conscience has been cauterized.
1Ti_4:2 in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized;"
If you are not revolted by a teaching that God is going to eternally torture people in literal fire, it has to be your conscience has failed to the degree you accept that teaching.
Yes, and this is why I could never be free in Christ for so many years - because my "inner man" my conscience was in conflict with what I was told I had to believe about God. I could not bury my inner conscience just to go along to get along. Some people can do that easily. I could not.
In a book I have, the question is broached: Can we call what is "bad" in man "good" in God?
God has given us all consciences. These consciences accuse or defend according to:
Rom 2:15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,...
If your conscience revolts at a human father torturing his own children in fire, if your conscience revolts at any man torturing another human, it is because God put that conscience in every human. This conscience is reflective of the very nature of a good God. The only reason one would not revolt is because their conscience has been cauterized.
1Ti_4:2 in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized;"
If you are not revolted by a teaching that God is going to eternally torture people in literal fire, it has to be your conscience has failed to the degree you accept that teaching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
It is supported in the Bible verse he cited, Mike. That is no different than your tactics.
1 Timothy 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
The ET'ers reject their own "consciences" (the guidance of the Holy Spirit) using the "doctrine of devils" that says if God does it . . . it must be Good no matter what our conscience says (= hypocrisy).
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings
You might reconsider what he actually wrote. But to be honest I think you fully understood his post and because you are without defense you start to act as a victim in the hope the inconvenient truth goes away.
If those who hold the viewpoint shared by the three posters above are to be consistent in the application of that viewpoint, then they must of necessity apply it to Jesus as well, because it was He who said,
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels . . . "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41, 46
Jesus is of course speaking of Himself as the judge who will command the accursed ones to depart from Him into the eternal fire.
The argument being promoted on this thread which attempts to discredit the Biblically taught doctrine of eternal punishment does so by making claims regarding those who believe that doctrine. To state that those who believe what the Bible says concerning eternal punishment have a seared conscience and are hypocrites does not negate the simple fact that passages in the Bible do indeed speak of eternal punishment.
If those who hold the viewpoint shared by the three posters above are to be consistent in the application of that viewpoint, then they must of necessity apply it to Jesus as well, because it was He who said,
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels . . . "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41, 46
Jesus is of course speaking of Himself as the judge who will command the accursed ones to depart from Him into the eternal fire.
The argument being promoted on this thread which attempts to discredit the Biblically taught doctrine of eternal punishment does so by making claims regarding those who believe that doctrine. To state that those who believe what the Bible says concerning eternal punishment have a seared conscience and are hypocrites does not negate the simple fact that passages in the Bible do indeed speak of eternal punishment.
God is spirit. Do you believe that the same spirit of God that is in you is capable of releasing eternal hell upon you?. I hope you realize by what you believe that God is going to release this hell through you who actually believe it. Not to,God would have to remove himself from you and say to you step aside a moment while I release hell upon these folk, and if this is the case without God's spirit in you looking upon this scenario you would die in fear on the spot. Which by the way this kind of belief and portrayal of God is killing Christians spiritual and mentally.
If you do not have it in you to be honest enough to question that loved ones that do not believe are going to end up eternally punished, but rather just dismiss it into the deep recesses of your being, I find that something you should be concerned about.
In saying that, I understand to a degree why you would accept loved ones in eternal torment for their unbelief, because you are convinced this is what you are saved from yourself.
If those who hold the viewpoint shared by the three posters above are to be consistent in the application of that viewpoint, then they must of necessity apply it to Jesus as well, because it was He who said,
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels . . . "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41, 46
Jesus is of course speaking of Himself as the judge who will command the accursed ones to depart from Him into the eternal fire.
The argument being promoted on this thread which attempts to discredit the Biblically taught doctrine of eternal punishment does so by making claims regarding those who believe that doctrine. To state that those who believe what the Bible says concerning eternal punishment have a seared conscience and are hypocrites does not negate the simple fact that passages in the Bible do indeed speak of eternal punishment.
Mike, the conscience God gave to mankind, which is in fact God's understanding of what is right and wrong, good and evil, should, if your conscience was intact or uncorrupted, tell you there must be something horribly wrong with the verse you quoted in Matthew 25:41,16.
Instead of investigating the problems with those verses, you just willy nilly rely upon a corrupted ***version*** or should I say ***perversion*** of the Sacred Scriptures.
Since the verses go contrary to the very conscience God gave us, we need to investigate whether the verses were translated correctly. I can assure you, they were not. I, and others here have explained to you over and over that aionios cannot possibly mean "eternal." You reject the truth of this. You reject the truth that God cannot possibly torture any human for eternity. Therefore I can only conclude that you:
1.have no conscience or
2.have a conscience but it is defiled
Here is the Greek of verse 41. I will bold the problem area of your perversion:
Here are some proper translation of the above Greek and which harmonize with the laws of language pertaining to the Greek and harmonize with the conscience God gave us:
(Weymouth NT)
"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.
(Young's Literal Translation)
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
(Concordant Literal New Testament)
Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."[/SIZE]
And here is verse 46:
(GNT-TR)
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
And the proper translations of the above verse:
(WNT) "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
(YLT) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
(CLV) And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Do you see what is absent from the above verses? The word "torture." God does not torture any human in fire.
κολασιν (Kolasin), Punishment or chastening was used by the Greeks of Christ's day as being REMEDIAL.
Mike, the above verses have to do with NATIONS like Iraq or Russia or the United States for example. If, during the great tribulation, any nation harms Christ's brethren then that NATION as a whole will pay the price when Christ sets up His 1000 year reign on earth. Those nations will be ruled with a rod of iron. This is to train them, to remediate them.
"The Adversary and his messengers" should be understood as "the adversary NATION and its couriers." These goat nations will send out couriers (messengers) with letters to persecute Christ's brethren. Since they caused Christ's brethren to go through the fire (in a figurative way) it is not these nations turn to go through the figurative fire.
Now then, a conscience which is not corrupt, not seared, a conscience which is good, will agree with the above because it is in harmony with the nature of God which is all the fruits of the Spirit.
If you don't like the consequences of sin , I suggest you don't sin, furthermore if it bothers you that much it might be prudent to show other the consequences for sin, so they would to have to suffer as well.
OH wait a minuet you all don't like being warned of consequences I forgot,
Never mind .
Man must realize he is not God. He is not equal to God. He cannot judge God. Just as our earthly parents have rights to do things their children are not so it is with God. This idea that God must conform to your idea of what is right and wrong is rebellion against God and evidence of where you place God in your life. Step down from your self created thrown and let God be God.
Man must realize he is not God. He is not equal to God. He cannot judge God. Just as our earthly parents have rights to do things their children are not so it is with God. This idea that God must conform to your idea of what is right and wrong is rebellion against God and evidence of where you place God in your life. Step down from your self created thrown and let God be God.
Do you believe the spirit of God is joined to you or in you unattached ?.
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