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Old 11-26-2007, 09:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Oh really, where is He?
I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA: When Jesus promised His disciples that He would come to them, He said: "I go to prepare a place for you; and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come and again and receive you to Myself; that WHERE I AM you may be also" (John 14:2b-3).

Jesus "came" in judgment against that generation of apostate Jews (Matthew 23). He used the instrumentality of the Romans to exact that judgment. This is typical of God's "comings" in the OT when He judged nations and people by giving them into the hands of their enemies (e.g. judgment on Edom, Egypt, Babylon and Israel).

Where is Jesus? He is in His kingdom which is and never was of this world!

Preterist
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA: When Jesus promised His disciples that He would come to them, He said: "I go to prepare a place for you; and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come and again and receive you to Myself; that WHERE I AM you may be also" (John 14:2b-3).

Jesus "came" in judgment against that generation of apostate Jews (Matthew 23). He used the instrumentality of the Romans to exact that judgment. This is typical of God's "comings" in the OT when He judged nations and people by giving them into the hands of their enemies (e.g. judgment on Edom, Egypt, Babylon and Israel).

Where is Jesus? He is in His kingdom which is and never was of this world!

Preterist
Sorry, but I disagree with you on this. What about the rapture? I do not believe the tribulation or the rapture have occurred and I definitely do not believe Jesus has returned to earth.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Sorry, but I disagree with you on this. What about the rapture? I do not believe the tribulation or the rapture have occurred and I definitely do not believe Jesus has returned to earth.
It is good to believe, I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA, but our beliefs must be solidly grounded in truth. Where is the rapture mentioned? The word itself is found nowhere in the Scriptures. This is a doctrine taken from 1 Thessalonians 4. But if you read closely, you can see that Paul was speaking of something that very much personally involved him and those to whom he was writing. Notice the personal pronouns "you" and "we" and the possessive pronoun "our." To whom do they refer?

"But I do not want YOU to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep lest YOU sorrow as others who have no hope. For it WE believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this WE say to YOU by the word of the Lord, that WE who ARE ALIVE and remain until the COMING of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then WE are ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul clearly is imparting his belief that these things were going to happen to him and to those contemporaneous to him. His words were intended to comfort THEM in their time of great trials and tribulation. There is no comfort in something that will not happen for thousands of years! Notice also that it says nothing about Jesus coming down to the earth but rather of their going up to him! This coincides with Jesus' words to His first-century disciples in Luke 21:

"Then they will see the Son of Man COMING in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, [YOU] look up and lift up YOUR heads, because YOUR redemption draws NEAR."

As for the tribulation, it also occurred in the first century. Jesus spoke of this to His first-century disciples and warned THEM of it because it was coming in their lifetimes. Matthew 24:21--"Therefore when YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place . . . . For THEN there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Luke refers to it as "the days of vengeance" (Luke 21:22). All of this took place in that generation. "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat. 24:34).

What do you make of these:

"YOU [the Twelve] will not have finished going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES" (Matthew 10:23).

"There are some standing HERE who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28).

"Hereafter, YOU [Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven" (Matthew 26:64).

These are cloud comings in judgment typical of prophetic language and used many times in the OT. God used the Roman armies to exact His punishment upon that first-century generaton of apostate Jews.

Preterist
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
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I'm with ILNC on this one. I don't think some of the events spoken of in the NT have occurred yet. All I can say is that like so many others, I am awaiting His return to be able to go home and be with Him for all eternity.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur View Post
I'm with ILNC on this one. I don't think some of the events spoken of in the NT have occurred yet. All I can say is that like so many others, I am awaiting His return to be able to go home and be with Him for all eternity.
urbanlemur: May I politely ask you what events have not occurred yet and what Scriptures you use to support it?

Here is my support for why I have abandoned pre-mil, pre-trib. dispensationalism (I was a diehard dispensationalist for over twenty years).

There are serious time references in the Scriptures that are all but ignored by the dispensational crowd. Either that or they are redefined or erroneously explained away by 2 Peter 3:8. Let's consider two.

Jesus clearly said in Matthew 24:34 "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." Every time Jesus used this expression it always referred to those contemporaneous to Himself. If in one of these instances, we are to give it a different meaning from its normal, everyday, usual one, we must have clear justification for doing so. If Jesus, for example, in Matthew 24:34 meant some other generation than that generation in which He was living, could He not have said it more plainly? Why would He use an expression that He ALWAYS used to mean His generation when, in fact, He meant another generation?

Much of what dispensationalists believe comes from the Book of Revelation. However, if we again seriously consider the time indicators, it becomes clear that all the events are restricted to a specific time frame.

John was shown those things which were to then SHORTLY take place--the time was then NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).

All I am asking is that you be open to the POSSIBILITY that there is another way of understanding the proofs texts we use to support our beliefs. Is not your first inclination when you read such time references to take them in their normal, everyday, usual sense? When you read the word "shortly," does not something in you immediately think "soon?" When Jesus says, "This generation," is it not your first impression that He was talking about those then living in His day? If we have to repeatedly reason away the obvious, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate what we are believing.

Is it REASONABLE to take words in their most common meanings? And if we do not take them in their most common meanings, why not? It is not enough to appeal to 2 Peter 3:8 to negate the meaning of the numerous time words found in the NT. God is outside of the confines of time--He is God. But He placed us within the time He Himself created and He communicates with us within those boundaries so that we can understand Him. Why would He say "soon" to us, when in fact He meant later--much later? Why would He have His inspired writers say that something was "near," when in fact it was a long way off? Words mean things, else there is no true communication.

Jesus said He was coming soon--"Behold, I am coming quickly." James said "the coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8). Why is it unreasonable and unworthy of being considered when students of the Word take those words at face value? And if we do not take them at face value, what reasonable and satisfactory answer do we have for not doing so?

Thank you for your consideration of these things.

Respectfully, Preterist
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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No Jesus has not returned yet. The book of Revelation was a message for John's time and it it relevant today. As Christ's return gets closer, there is a greater polarization between God's followers and satans followers. Jesus said He is coming soon, soon meaning at any moment and be prepared, be ready. When Jesus returns there will be no more evil and there is still a lot of evil in the world. But God is greater than the devil and Jesus conquered the devil at the cross. The final come from Jesus is an invitation to anyone who is thirsting in their soul for fulfillment that never ends.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
No Jesus has not returned yet. The book of Revelation was a message for John's time and it it relevant today. As Christ's return gets closer, there is a greater polarization between God's followers and satans followers. Jesus said He is coming soon, soon meaning at any moment and be prepared, be ready. When Jesus returns there will be no more evil and there is still a lot of evil in the world. But God is greater than the devil and Jesus conquered the devil at the cross. The final come from Jesus is an invitation to anyone who is thirsting in their soul for fulfillment that never ends.
ILNC: Could you please give me some Scriptures? And have you considered the Scriptures I gave you? The opening verses of the Revelation and the closing verses clearly state that John was to be shown those things that were to SHORTLY take place. The time was then NEAR.

I am sorry, ILNC, and I really don't mean to be disagreeable, but is that what soon means? Might I ask whether you use soon in that sense in your everyday life? How can we trust anything in the Word of God if we cannot take the very simplest of terms at face value? Note the following uses of that same Greek term (engus) which is found in Revelation 1:3 and 22:10 for "at hand," "near"--

Matthew 24:32--"You know that summer is AT HAND (NEAR)" Did Jesus mean that summer was always in a state of coming at anytime?

Matthew 26:18--(just before Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem)--Jesus said "My time is AT HAND." Did He mean that it was always in a state of being at hand at anytime?

John 7:2--The "Jews' passover was AT HAND." Does this mean that it was always in a state of potentially happening at anytime?

Ephesians 2:13--We are made NEAR by the blood of Jesus." Does near here mean that we are always at anytime about to be made near?

The same is true of "shortly." It always means within a short amount of time. The things John was shown in the Revelation were things that were in his day to shortly take place or take place soon because the time was then near. It is no accident that God orchestrated it to have this time restraint clearly given at both the beginning of Revelation and at the end. Yes, the words of Revelation are relevant to us today, but the events occurred to those in that generation, especially in the years preceding the fall of Jerusalem and the temple.

Where does it say there will be no more evil here on this earth as Christ's coming? And who was told to watch and be ready?

Preterist
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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I have read some strange beliefs on this forum, but Preterist yours seems to the strangest. Romans 14:11 says every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, that has not happened. Jesus is coming back in power and glory visible to all the world, I have not seen Him, have you? Rev 21:3-4 "I heard a loud shout from the throne saying look the home of God is now among His people, He will live with them and they will be His people. God Himself will be with them. He will remove all of their sorrows and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. For the old world and its evils are gone FOREVER".
To me this is proof that Jesus has not returned. I've already explained about the word soon. Do you really believe what you've posted???? I have never heard any one who believes that, what denomination are you?
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
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I don't really understand why it is so hard to see that Jesus could be talking in both the present AND future tenses here. He is certainly describing details of the A.D. 70 disaster but he could very well be describing future events. Look at verse 6:.."See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet". To me, this says that there will be more troubles and tribulations to come, even after the events of A.D. 70.

Jesus describes the world as suffering "birth pangs". What does that mean? Look at Romans 8:22 and this describes the world as suffering and groaning even until now. Paul was speaking of his times but we all know that the world is continuing to shift and groan both physically and from the sin of creation even today.

Verse 14 states: "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." The final evidence of the end times will be the proclamation of the gospel on a world-wide level. Armegeddon will occur as the final battle and Jesus Himself will intervene.

The abomination of desolation did occur in A.D. 70 as Antiochus IV placed a statue of Zeus within the walls of the temple. However, the ultimate descration will occur when the Antichrist comes to the existing temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself as god. (See Revelation for further explanation regarding this end time.)

Verses 29-31 speak of Christ's return in a manner that suggests that there is going to be much more upheaval than the day He died on the Cross. So far, the sun is still here and the moon still gives off its light, something they will cease to do on this day of His return. There is no record of stars falling from the heavens or of them being shaken in the NT. Jesus will appear in heaven, or the skies, and everyone will see Him in His glory. When He returned to the disciples, no one even recognized Him. (See Mark 16 and Luke 24.) When He returns, everyone will see Him and will know that He is Lord!!

The times He speaks of were bad then but they are just as bad, if not worse today, than they were then. Also, why would He admonish us to watch for Him, to be ready and waiting as a bride waits for her groom? Look at Acts 1:11 which reads:"men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you say Him go into heaven". These are the words of the two angels who spoke to the disciples who watched Him ascend. If Jesus was not coming back like He spoke of, then why did the angels say this to them? It sounds pretty clear to me that He will one day return for His people.

I think I have covered some material here as food for thought. I know there is more but I don't have time right now to search and enter it here. Let me know what you think.
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
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Sorry but I need to correct a comment I made in my last entry. When I stated that when Christ comes for His church, all will see Him in His glory. That is my error. The time spoken of here, only the elect, His church will see Him and will hear the trumpet blast. Now the second time He comes, to take control of the earth, He will light upon the temple area and then, all the world will see Him and He will be followed by those who went up with Him the first time. I needed to correct that here....sorry for the mistake.
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