The Church Or The Bible (testimony, believe, scriptures, evolution)

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Just one comment seem to have been overlooked. It is argued that Jesus talked about his curch rather than his Bible.

This is overlooking the fact that he talked more about his 'Word'. If not in the bible, what on earth word are we talking about? It is his word that is what counts, not his 'Church', because wherever a few are gathered together in his name (and ensuring that they are sticking to his word - in the Bible ) there He is, and not confining himself to any particular church.

You are all very welcome

Jesus was the word made flesh. He wasn't referring to a written work, he was referring to himself who brought the word.

John 1:14.

[FundamentalBibleBeliever]

Originally Posted by Julian658

Modern Fundamentalists follow Paul rather than Jesus.

And Catholics follow a man rather than Jesus.

Let's be honest. To say we follow Paul rather than Jesus is like saying the Jews followed Moses rather than God.

Jesus gave us the "mystery" through the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. To no follow Paul in this dispensation is to not follow Jesus.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by revrandy

So that would mean only the Old Testament is inspired as 2 Timothy was written before any of the gospels.

Also if I write my own bible and put in it a line that says it is inspired by God and perfect in every way, you would view it as a perfect revelation from God - correct? After all, what I write in mine is no different than what Paul wrote in his (even though there is strong doubt that Paul even write 2 Timothy).

Actually most of what is in the Bible today (The NT) was written prior to 2nd Timothy. Now you can accept the OT/NT or reject it, but the Apostles used the OT and recognized their own writings as inspired and so spoke of them. Without them you would have a Judaism that no longer had a Covenant or any relationship with God and no New Covenant Ekklesia. Not a real good idea.

You can make any claim you want, but I doubt you will be able to compete with the NT writers as to legitimacy.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Jesus was the word made flesh. He wasn't referring to a written work, he was referring to himself who brought the word.

John 1:14.

Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Jhn 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Jhn 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me,
he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode
with him.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them,
Jhn 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

This is just a small number of quotes that suggests to me that it was what Jesus said that should be passed on and either believed or not, and followed or not that was as important as his personal manifestation in the world.
The only way that these words could be passed on was in scripture.
It is the words of the Bible, rather than membership and attendance at a church that is what jesus wanted.

That's how I read it. Others must decide for themselves.

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by expatCA

Actually most of what is in the Bible today (The NT) was written prior to 2nd Timothy. Now you can accept the OT/NT or reject it, but the Apostles used the OT and recognized their own writings as inspired and so spoke of them.

So I am supposed to believe what you say is true and not the various theologians who have studied the writings their entire life and published their findings in peer reviewed journals? Hrm... no offense, I will take the theologians word any day over your word.

Also what are the writings of the apostles? Did you mean the gospels? When did they ever claim they were inspired and without error?

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever

And Catholics follow a man rather than Jesus.

I'd guess you're referring to the Pope?

Considering how many Catholics use artificial birth control it's clear they don't.

[Wardendresden]

Originally Posted by revrandy

So that would mean only the Old Testament is inspired as 2 Timothy was written before any of the gospels.

Also if I write my own bible and put in it a line that says it is inspired by God and perfect in every way, you would view it as a perfect revelation from God - correct? After all, what I write in mine is no different than what Paul wrote in his (even though there is strong doubt that Paul even write 2 Timothy).

revrandy, you get it. There is much conflict between the gospel preached by Paul and the gospel of Jesus. And whoever wrote second Timothy was different in style from known Pauline writings and added in 3:16 the one and only place where "God-inspired" is used in the early Greek manuscripts of the New Testament.

In addition it basically states that some parts of the scripture that the Jews believed might be inaccurate are themselves inaccurate.

Jeremiah 4:4 Jeremiah writes, "Say to them, 'This is what the Lord says:' and then continues down to verse eight which is the crucial ---

"How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,' when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely."

So who do we believe, the writer of Jeremiah who attributes to God warning us some scripture may be the result of lying scribes or the author of 2 Timothy who says, All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching,--- etc.

Had the "Pauline" verse stated Most scripture is inspired by God then there would be no conflict. Jeremiah recognized that scribes centuries before Paul had done their share of "messing" with what the Jews considered holy---and what we Christians now claim is holy also. But how can it be holy as fundamentalists want to present it when those "holy words" conflict with one another regarding the very scriptures they purport elevate beyond all reason.

True faith is discerning of the scripture. It questions scripture. One group of extremists rejects it outright while the other blindly accepts it (as they interpret it) with not even a casual thought about its appropriateness in fitting in with the life of Jesus.

Learning to read scripture and questioning the reasons behind the writing (which were frequently prejudicial) is necessary to find Jesus.

Some people read the Bible uncritically in hope of finding the peace that passeth all understanding. I read it critically to find the understanding that brings real peace.

Now when it comes to churches, I just wish I could find one with a pastor such as yourself who recognizes the limitation of the scripture to reveal an unlimited God, but isn't limited himself to reveal other ways to discover God within our lives.

Blessings.

[FundamentalBibleBeliever]

If one man teaches the Law to the Jews only and another teaches a new revelation or "mystery" to the Gentiles that God gave him alone why do you think they would be the same thing?

Why would something known since the foundation of the earth and something kept secret since the foundation of the earth not be different?

[FundamentalBibleBeliever]

Originally Posted by DewDropInn

I'd guess you're referring to the Pope?

Considering how many Catholics use artificial birth control it's clear they don't.

Well most people claiming to follow Jesus don't either but that's not the point. I was making a comparable comment to the posters silly comment.

[pcamps]

If you read the comment by Pat from Canada on page 5 of this little book, it sums up to me what the real issue of the Christian church is and that it is the church that needs evangelizing not the world. The fault for the church having become this in my opinion lies at the feet of pastors, teachers and preachers who are killing the folk with the bible, rather than giving them life by the Spirit which unfortunately they do not know and unwittingly resist and try to suppress .

By the way this is not a universalist book, so don't worth you will not get deceived and sent to hell for reading it.

http://www.enterhisrest.org/ichabod/out_of_church.pdf