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Old 12-28-2013, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,829 posts, read 47,146,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
I really don't know... perhaps Spiritual blindness in that area or maybe just wishful thinking (?) They also seem to want to 'label' everyone who doesn't believe in UR as an "ET'r" ... as if to suggest that the only way hell could exist is for God Himself to favor Eternal Torment.

IMO, the UR philosophy is a major heresy of our time, since it promotes ignoring a huge amount of scripture that says otherwise. (It's not just a doctrinal position, but, an overt effort to encourage others to ignore scriptural warnings, under the auspices of "a loving God who would never ... (fill in the blank)). That's been the lie of Satan from the beginning: "Surely, you will not die."

By the same token, I believe there are a lot of sincere, people who genuinely believe in UR and believe that a lot of the "all" and "temporary eternity" scriptures trump all Bible references to hell or condemnation. --- Honestly, I wish that I could find some basis in scripture to support the UR, 'no hell' belief ... and simply not worry about what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ; BUT, it simply isn't there!
Good post. Very true.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:41 AM
 
68 posts, read 61,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Luke 30:13 "the first and last" Jesus relates to the ones that sit with Abraham in the coming kingdom. the first are the ones that sit with Jesus on thrones like the Apostles and last are the ones who are saved, but only through the fire, they are not sitting on thrones. There are different rewards. But Jesus words remain true, few and not all will enter His kingdom.
There are the first here now on earth who rule in the churches, have the authority and power, if they rule like the world does and not let by the Spirit, they will be the last, some workers for God got rich and will loose their reward in Heaven, because they received it already here on earth, the right attitude of the heart is important to serve God and not the mammon. Some loose their reward by receiving the honor of men and not giving honor to God. The teachers of the word will get a stronger judgement, if they teach falsehood where others can get stumble in there faith, it is dangerous.
Now the last here on earth for instance are the widows who are not important in the church, but pray and intercede and serve God in love helping others, they are the first in the kingdom of God, sitting on thrones.
The argument what God promises will come to pass is not true, they are often conditional (faith; obedience). Two million people of Israel had the promise of the promised land, only Joshua and Kaleb got the promise because they had the right spirit. The same is with us (1.Cor 10), the ones that are filled with the Spirit of God and are led by the Spirit are the adopted sons of God (Rom 8:14). The unbelievers have the spirit of this world and are in the kingdom of darkness and light goes to light and darkness to darkness. Only the ones that are in the book of life escape the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). Paul said he wants to be in the first resurrection and he said he has to persuade it, not that he has it already (Phil 3:10-12). Again it is conditional, later Paul said that he reached the goal.
All of the saints have both good works that receive reward, and bad works that get burnt up. So all of the saints will escape the flames because all of the saints have sinned and fell short no matter how holy you are.

As for who the "last which shall be first" and the "first which shall be last" are, we don't need to guess or jump to conclusions based on our traditions. Luke 13:25-30 lays it out clear. The KJV puts Jesus's words in red:

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. Luke 13:23-31

There's is no distinction of rich/poor, married/widow, etc. in this passage. No other questions were asked in between verses 24-30. Jesus describes two groups of people: those inside the kingdom, and those weeping outside, that's it. No other distinction was made. He then concludes his speech by putting each group in a category: "the last which shall be first" and the "first which shall be last". People want to have it both ways by applying both categories of people to one group; they want to pick and choose. Few are saved now, not in general.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:18 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,416,888 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post

The stumbling block for many of you is you think you have it all worked out what happens beyond the grave, and that man's measly few years in this life of vanity dead in sin and iniquity is his only chance of being saved from the effect of sin and suffering from under the condemnation of it. .
Face it ... that is your stumbling block which sent you off the deep end as Immanuel said would happen to those who reject the truth.
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;
the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

When an unbeliever dies ... it is the "last day" and also at the great judgment.
Despite Satan's lie that we don't know, Jesus spoke know for us enough to know what happens beyond the grave.


Scriptures clearly teach that:
  • Jesus spoke to that concept in a parable "Rich man and Lazarus"
  • Jesus spoke to that directly in Matthew 25, Revelation 20-21 and other scriptures
OT scriptures speak of repenting and turning from evil ways otherwise that will be the death of the unbeliever \ evildoer
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

1 Chronicles 28:9
the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.
Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:19 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,041,898 times
Reputation: 2741
If i was sold out to the belief of eternal hell and the horror of it I would not rest night and day in trying to convince my loved ones and friends of it, I simply would not give up and anytime I wasn't around them I would be on my knees praying for them. If I had to abstain from everything they thought a Christian shouldn't be doing being that would make me a hypocrite in their eyes,I would, I would pull my eyes out for them, give them all my goods, bear all their burdens, I'd be relentless in zeal to keep them out of it.

The fact is you too would probably be doing the same things if you really did believe it, but you know in your heart of hearts there is no such place where billions are eternally tormented,band you know your heart rebels against it and conscience tells you that it is despicable.

You certainly wouldn't be going through the motions of escapism wanting to be with Jesus, while the majority you believe are going to be eternally tormented.

If the eternal hell you believe in is true, most of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:23 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,041,898 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Face it ... that is your stumbling block which sent you off the deep end as Immanuel said would happen to those who reject the truth.
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;
the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

When an unbeliever dies ... it is the "last day" and also at the great judgment.
Despite Satan's lie that we don't know, Jesus spoke know for us enough to know what happens beyond the grave.


Scriptures clearly teach that:
  • Jesus spoke to that concept in a parable "Rich man and Lazarus"
  • Jesus spoke to that directly in Matthew 25, Revelation 20-21 and other scriptures
OT scriptures speak of repenting and turning from evil ways otherwise that will be the death of the unbeliever \ evildoer
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

1 Chronicles 28:9
the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.
Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
What are you even doing on here when there are loved ones and friends who are eternal hell bound ?.

Doesn't this concern you enough that you should be continually either praying or witnessing to them and warning them of their fete ?. Maybe you really don't believe what you say you do.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:37 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,416,888 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What are you even doing on here when there are loved ones and friends who are eternal hell bound ?.

Doesn't this concern you enough that you should be continually either praying or witnessing to them and warning them of their fete ?. Maybe you really don't believe what you say you do.

Maybe you ought to connect the dots and realize that when we reply back to you is for the very reason why you say:
  • praying or witnessing to them and warning them of their fete (fate)
because despite your cynicism we really believe what Jesus said.
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;
the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Matthew 25:31-45
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world ..

.. Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The same message found in the NT was told in the OT
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

1 Chronicles 28:9
the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever

Last edited by twin.spin; 12-28-2013 at 10:40 AM.. Reason: spacing gremlins
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,829 posts, read 47,146,947 times
Reputation: 14717
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
If i was sold out to the belief of eternal hell and the horror of it I would not rest night and day in trying to convince my loved ones and friends of it, I simply would not give up and anytime I wasn't around them I would be on my knees praying for them. If I had to abstain from everything they thought a Christian shouldn't be doing being that would make me a hypocrite in their eyes,I would, I would pull my eyes out for them, give them all my goods, bear all their burdens, I'd be relentless in zeal to keep them out of it.
Is that how you behaved when you were a "fundamentalist" like you claim you once were?
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:44 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,041,898 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Maybe you ought to connect the dots and realize that when we reply back to you is the reason why we're doing here:
  • praying or witnessing to them and warning them of their fete (fate)
because despite your cynicism we really believe what Jesus said.
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;
the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Matthew 25:31-45
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world ..

.. Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The same message found in the NT was told in the OT
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

1 Chronicles 28:9
the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever

Get out of here, you're friends and family are far more important to you than anyone posting on here. The truth is most of you don't have a living witness to the reality of Jesus Christ in your life, have no idea how to share Jesus Christ effectively to those who come across your lives, so you resort to sharing what is really within your hearts........... fear and torment. Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved from the fear and torment you are in and you will also have something worthwhile sharing with the world.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,986,043 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
You'll need to define exactly what is meant by God "needs" and what you believe (not what the phantom boogey man scare tactics that "fundamentalist" are accused of perpetrating) that an individual is saved from.
It is simple twin. In your theology, you believe that one must Choose God in order to be saved. You make the believer a co-savior. Of course you don't admit that but that is what logical/rational observers see in what you say. Now confronted with this information, you'll most likely shoot the messenger and not say thank you for your constructive observation. You would rather protect what you have learned instead of learn what can protect you by focusing on following the trail of facts that lead to the truth. What you don't understand fully or what contradicts, you just accept as part of your faith. Because there is absolutely contradiction in your beliefs.

Again, Fundamentalism breaks down to this logic:

1.) They preach that God is the 100% saving force in ones life.
2.) Then they preach that someone must CHOOSE to be saved in order to be saved.

This understanding is contradictory and its ANTI-CHRIST.

Jesus wanted His disciples to be SURE to understand that they DID NOT Choose Him but rather that He chose them.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:50 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,289,290 times
Reputation: 2375
Jghorton, I'm hoping you will respond to the question I put to you in this exchange:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
That love covers a multitudes of sin,that Jesus said if he was lifted up he would draw all men to himself,(now how you interpret this is up to you,but if lifting him helps in the drawing, start lifting him up in faith instead of condemning in your unbelief of the saving ability of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton
"IF" is a big contingency! This has nothing to do with doubting the Saving Ability of God, or God's love. It is about the willingness of people to come to God through Christ to be saved. In an OT parallel, Moses lifted-up the bronze serpent in the wilderness with the all inclusive promise that whoever would look upon it, would be saved. But, not all were willing, and thus, not all were saved.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
"If" doesn't modify people being drawn, it modifies Jesus being lifted up. So, has the contingency ("...if I may be lifted up...") been met, or hasn't it? If it has been met, then the promise was that, "I will draw all unto myself".

So, do you believe the contingency of "if I be lifted up" was met, or not?
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