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Old 12-24-2013, 10:10 PM
 
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Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. ~Luke 13:23-28


Many people, when using this passage to defend the doctrine of eternal torment, always ignore the last two verses of Jesusís statement. Letís read it:

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. ~Luke 13:29-30


Jesus was asked a clear question (are there few that be saved?), and he ended his answer by saying that some shall be first, and some shall be last. Why would Jesus say that some are first and others are last in reference to salvation, when according to Christianity, you are either saved now or never? Itís a contradiction. Jesus wasnít saying that only few will ever be saved, he was saying that only are saved first/now. There is an order to salvation.

In this passage, both those inside and outside of the kingdom, are being referred to as the first and the last. And when asked about salvation, Jesus concludes that some are first, and some are last. Thatís why whenever someone quotes this passage to defend eternal torment, they always ignore verse 30 and stop short at verse 28. Now letís read the parable of the vineyard:

1-5 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6-10 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11-16 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. ~Matthew 20:1-16

In this parable, we learn two very important things: 1. BOTH the first and the last get into the the vineyard which represents the kingdom of Heaven, but at different times, and 2. We should not be jealous but rather happy that God will eventually bless the last as well as the first.

Romans 11
also shows that there is an order to salvation:

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Verses 5-7

Part of Israel at this present time have received grace and the rest are blinded verses 7-10. But the result of blindness is not permanent verses 11-12. Their blindness will last only until the gentile nations are received of God:

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob ~Romans 11:19-26

Those that are cut off will not be cast away forever (Romans 11:19-24). Once again, some are saved first, and some are saved last:

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you (Romans 11:25-26). For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. ~Matthew 21:28-32
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Old 12-25-2013, 03:34 AM
 
7,858 posts, read 6,662,302 times
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Still there are condition for being saved for Heaven which are being born in the spirit of God to Jesus righteousness and people must repent of sin , and these the last people also must do to be saved ...... See in Luke 13 :1-5 which the same chapter Jesus said ...``Suppose you that these Galileans, were sinners above all Galileans, because they suffered such things?...I tell you Nay: but except you repent , you all likewise will parish .....Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them , think you that were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? .....I tell you Nay, but except you repent you will all likewise perish ``............Jesus like these last people who ignored and hated the commands of Lord Jesus Christ and refused to repent and be saved to Jesus will also like wise perish
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Old 12-25-2013, 07:29 AM
 
9 posts, read 8,997 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir. Noel View Post
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. ~Luke 13:23-28


Many people, when using this passage to defend the doctrine of eternal torment, always ignore the last two verses of Jesusís statement. Letís read it:

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. ~Luke 13:29-30


Jesus was asked a clear question (are there few that be saved?), and he ended his answer by saying that some shall be first, and some shall be last. Why would Jesus say that some are first and others are last in reference to salvation, when according to Christianity, you are either saved now or never? Itís a contradiction. Jesus wasnít saying that only few will ever be saved, he was saying that only are saved first/now. There is an order to salvation.

In this passage, both those inside and outside of the kingdom, are being referred to as the first and the last. And when asked about salvation, Jesus concludes that some are first, and some are last. Thatís why whenever someone quotes this passage to defend eternal torment, they always ignore verse 30 and stop short at verse 28. Now letís read the parable of the vineyard:

1-5 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6-10 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11-16 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. ~Matthew 20:1-16

In this parable, we learn two very important things: 1. BOTH the first and the last get into the the vineyard which represents the kingdom of Heaven, but at different times, and 2. We should not be jealous but rather happy that God will eventually bless the last as well as the first.

Romans 11
also shows that there is an order to salvation:

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Verses 5-7

Part of Israel at this present time have received grace and the rest are blinded verses 7-10. But the result of blindness is not permanent verses 11-12. Their blindness will last only until the gentile nations are received of God:

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob ~Romans 11:19-26

Those that are cut off will not be cast away forever (Romans 11:19-24). Once again, some are saved first, and some are saved last:

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you (Romans 11:25-26). For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. ~Matthew 21:28-32
You've done a substantial amount of work here. Unfortunately, none of these passages have to do with the heresy of universal salvation. It's Christmas Day and I don't have time (or quite frankly the desire) to exegesis each verse, but at quick glance most refer to the Jew and the Gentile. When I have more time I'll take a closer look at it. God bless & Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-25-2013, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,469 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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The believes are the only ones who will enter, and gentiles will enter first although they were called last, or poor before the rich, but those who reject The Lord will not enter at all, just like Luke 13 so clearly explains.
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Old 12-25-2013, 10:05 AM
 
16,062 posts, read 9,234,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir. Noel View Post
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. ~Luke 13:23-28
Nope. God forces no one and some will simply not obey God, ever.

KJV Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. .... 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Old 12-25-2013, 11:02 AM
 
68 posts, read 45,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The believes are the only ones who will enter, and gentiles will enter first although they were called last, or poor before the rich, but those who reject The Lord will not enter at all, just like Luke 13 so clearly explains.
I know only believers will enter, that's why the last are outside of the kingdom; but for how long will they abide in unbelief after being cut off? (romans 11:19-26). There's no reason for Jesus to end his statement by saying that some are first and some are last in reference to salvation, if the last (those outside of the kingdom) will remain outside forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Still there are condition for being saved for Heaven which are being born in the spirit of God to Jesus righteousness and people must repent of sin , and these the last people also must do to be saved ...... See in Luke 13 :1-5 which the same chapter Jesus said ...``Suppose you that these Galileans, were sinners above all Galileans, because they suffered such things?...I tell you Nay: but except you repent , you all likewise will parish .....Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them , think you that were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? .....I tell you Nay, but except you repent you will all likewise perish ``............Jesus like these last people who ignored and hated the commands of Lord Jesus Christ and refused to repent and be saved to Jesus will also like wise perish
Romans 11 lays out those conditions: The unbeliever will be cut off (19-22), but if they believe again they can come back (23-24). Those that don't repent will be lost, That's what Jesus said. Not those that die without repenting will always be lost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Nope. God forces no one and some will simply not obey God, ever.

KJV Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. .... 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"some will simply not obey God, ever."

I bet you believe you're saved by your own free will? You're saved by grace through faith alone Ephesians 2:8-9. We ALL inherited the same sinful rebellious nature from Adam. To say that God can bring you to repentance but not others is a contradiction. Stop putting free will on such a high pedestal and give God credit where credit is due.

All Matthew 7:21 is saying is that you must do the will of the father in order to go to heaven. It's not saying "those who die without doing the will of the father will be lost forever". Both the first and last (those inside and outside) will enter God's kingdom, it's only a matter of when.

Last edited by Sir. Noel; 12-25-2013 at 12:09 PM..
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Old 12-25-2013, 12:09 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,158 posts, read 19,964,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Nope. God forces no one and some will simply not obey God, ever.

KJV Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. .... 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
But he is the greatest persuader and convincer known to man. You really don't think you just suddenly happened to choose to believe something surely. You even stopped believing in Santa Claus after a " hang on a minute"moment and I'm sure you would be the first to say, that if he can convince me he can convince anyone.

Last edited by pcamps; 12-25-2013 at 01:24 PM..
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Old 12-25-2013, 01:11 PM
 
4,564 posts, read 2,265,910 times
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According to Isaiah 11 vs 3,4 who does Jesus get rid of ?_____ see also Revelation 19 vs 11,15

Are the people of Hebrews 6 vs 4-6 saved ?_____ see also Matthew 12 v 32
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Old 12-25-2013, 01:45 PM
 
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The pinnacle of his loving-kindness and mercy, embraces the ways of righteousness; and all will be saved, coming to the knowledge of the truth.
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Old 12-25-2013, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,469 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir. Noel View Post
I know only believers will enter, that's why the last are outside of the kingdom; but for how long will they abide in unbelief after being cut off? (romans 11:19-26). There's no reason for Jesus to end his statement by saying that some are first and some are last in reference to salvation, if the last (those outside of the kingdom) will remain outside forever.
I already explained the meaning of the verse, and it says nothing about those who died in unbelief. Those who die while rejecting, will be cast out forever. There are no second chances after death as the Bible teaches you die, and then you are judged.
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