U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-03-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: The High Seas
7,160 posts, read 12,774,885 times
Reputation: 11001

Advertisements

This is something I've wondered about in regards to predestination and the "unfairness" of people born and/or raised in such a way as to develop personality disorders (otherwise known as "character" disorders). Some research suggests a genetic component to Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well as other similar disorders, but the book is still out on that.
The signs are present early in their lives, but diagnoses are "not allowed" until the person reaches the age of maturity.
At any rate, we're called as Christians to obey, to be decent, and to love.
This seems out of the realm of possibility for the predators who co-exist among us.
Given that these disorders are mostly hopeless, since nothing is wrong with the character disordered person (in their mind), what chance do they have of becoming good, God-fearing people? Really none at all, or with the odds so heavily stacked against them that the effort would be monumental and would have to start from other people who care enough to help.
Has anyone contemplated this, or is there something from scripture that might address this?
Psychological disorders (as we know them) are a mental construct originating within the last hundred years, but they appear very valid in describing people and offering little in the way of a hopeful prognosis.
Does God allow some of his creation to be "damned by their very nature"? (I guess that is the right way to ask the question.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-03-2014, 10:28 PM
 
Location: In Sticky San Antonio TX
1,401 posts, read 2,456,495 times
Reputation: 1671
I don't know that you need to be 'damned' with a character disorder as much as you may need to keep it in check. We have control over ourselves (yes, even those with character disorders/PD's) and we can certainly see cross-roads over when persons with PD's have made errors in judgment. To identify some of the more well-known examples of persons who may have character disorders: Bill Clinton saying he didn't have sex (narcissistic); Richard Nixon saying he was not a crook (antisocial); Jim Bakker with the PTL Club espousing monogamy (histrionic); and Bernie Madoff and his investments (narcissism). All of these were reputable, intelligent persons but all made fatal errors in decisions and judgments and went awry. Some have made confessions (not to me, likely to G-d, and have accessed the good graces of society again) while others are still working at it.

Having said this, I would not want anyone less brilliant than Bill Clinton, less cunning than Nixon, less charismatic than Bakker, and less confident than Madoff, each in their respective roles. Each of them have done their share of mayhem and may still be suffering. We don't understand the love and forgiveness of G-d. We know what society will not tolerate and what each of these individuals did, good and bad. Are they redeemable, even after what they've done? That's G-d's decision, although grace was given freely for all. Are they capable of doing well? That's a decision they made each day, and we make each day, and so (without pontificating) free will becomes an agent each individual is responsible for.

Does a character disorder make someone damned? No, behaviors and intentions. I don't think a Ted Kaczynski, Jim Jones, or David Koresh are people we can answer for. That's ultimately to G-d. Are they destined to be damned by their very nature? I didn't hear their confessions before they died. There is a discussion about Hitler, and there should be discussions about Hirohito, Mussolini, and Mao, relative to redemption and G-d's grace, as well as damned by their nature. This isn't an unanswerable question as much as it begs the question what we need to know about pathology and G-d's grace. I see grace as endless, and have no answer for those with PD's. But then there are social laws, which keeps Madoff away, put Bakker in jail, fried Bundy in FL, etc. That's an egg with different feathers. I hope you find answers, and my response doesn't muddy your knowing G-d better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2014, 10:47 PM
 
Location: The High Seas
7,160 posts, read 12,774,885 times
Reputation: 11001
Free will really is the question. But, there are people who are natural predators without a conscience. Not being able to get into the mindset, so I don't know if they have dimmed their conscience or maybe it was never developed from the outset. This has been suggested through some research.

I think of this fable as being illustrative of the problem: The Scorpion and the Frog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From a scientific or logical point of view though, I doubt sociopaths and narcissists are self-created. It seems to be in their nature. I'm open to being wrong about this and hope that free will is given to everyone. It's just not what I see though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2014, 11:03 PM
 
Location: kS.
505 posts, read 461,827 times
Reputation: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snort View Post
This is something I've wondered about in regards to predestination and the "unfairness" of people born and/or raised in such a way as to develop personality disorders (otherwise known as "character" disorders). Some research suggests a genetic component to Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well as other similar disorders, but the book is still out on that.
The signs are present early in their lives, but diagnoses are "not allowed" until the person reaches the age of maturity.
At any rate, we're called as Christians to obey, to be decent, and to love.
This seems out of the realm of possibility for the predators who co-exist among us.
Given that these disorders are mostly hopeless, since nothing is wrong with the character disordered person (in their mind), what chance do they have of becoming good, God-fearing people? Really none at all, or with the odds so heavily stacked against them that the effort would be monumental and would have to start from other people who care enough to help.
Has anyone contemplated this, or is there something from scripture that might address this?
Psychological disorders (as we know them) are a mental construct originating within the last hundred years, but they appear very valid in describing people and offering little in the way of a hopeful prognosis.
Does God allow some of his creation to be "damned by their very nature"? (I guess that is the right way to ask the question.)
Of course I'm no psychologist (not that I would trust a secular one anyway!) but it seems to me that narcissism begins with SELF. Self is one of the most destructive forces in the life of man or woman. Look up the definations associated with "self" in the dictionary. You MIGHT find one or two which are not detrimental. The rest are not good traits to possess (or have possess you).
This is one of the reasons God calls us to "die to self" and surrender to Him. Those who won't, run the risk of going through life depending on self. This can lead to atheism, agnosticism, pride, stubbornness, ego run wild and a false sense of high intelligence and high IQ.
So in this sense they are not damned by their very nature they are damned BY THEIR CHOICE to allow themselves to be this way. There's not a person on this earth who doesn't know in their own heart AND MIND when they think a whole lot of themselves...it's impossible not to. It will show in their deeds and words.
God give us a verse:"For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him."

Unfortunately, when one lives a lifestyle of self at the expense of God it opens doors for more evil to enter. God warns us of a "lying spirit" in His Word. Some of the manifestations of the lying spirit are:
1. lies
2. strong delusion
3. insinuation
4. exaggeration
5. flattery
6. hypocrisy
7. a "driving zeal"
8. vain imaginations and
9. vain notions

1. the human that lives for self indulges in lies of belief and life doctrines.
2. they have a false impression of their own self worth and importance. This is a deceived condition of the mind and heart. It is a life lived with a substitution of the truth with a counterfeit.
3. they insinuate to others what they believe of themselves. This is a pretense of what is not really true; but which they believe to be the truth about themselves.
4. they will exaggerate their own importance and intelligence; they "puff" themselves up in the eyes of others.
5. flattery is false or insincere praise, (mostly for themselves)"... a flattering mouth worketh ruin" (Pr. 26:28). Interesting to note: the antichrist will obtain the kingdom of the earth by flattery!
6. pretending to be "a good person" while denying the guilt of sin.
7. sometimes referred to as a "driving spirit". This is not of God. It drives one to strenuous efforts that exhaust the body.
8. a creation of the mind, a mental idea or image; a fanciful or vain notion. We are to walk in the truth not suppositions of our own creation that stem from self.
9. Is a result of lack of understanding, specifically (for example) false notions or opinions of what the Bible means sometimes without even studying it. We accept that vain notion as fact , as truth. When someone contradicts it with the real truth it is rejected as something "extremely unbelievable"; wacko, far out and totally unbelievable.

Last edited by Joint heir with jesus; 01-03-2014 at 11:12 PM.. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2014, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,264 posts, read 10,045,776 times
Reputation: 15163
The key to thinking rightly about this subject is to first unconditionally acknowledge that God is ALWAYS righteous, holy and just. Whenever we start to imagine that God has 'unfair' or 'unjust' motives, we wrongly presume to 'judge' or 'accuse' God. Whatever God does is/will be the 'right thing', whether we understand it or not.

That said, it has become quite popular to simply assume/declare that some people are inescapably trapped by 'inborn' characteristics over which they have no control. I would not presume to conclude that that is 'never' the case, but, scripture seems to clearly paint a much different picture.

Further, there may be some aspect of "creating some 'pots' for destruction" (Jer. 18, Rom 9:20-22) ... that we are simply unable to fully comprehend with our limited, earthly frame-of-reference.

Last edited by jghorton; 01-03-2014 at 11:44 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2014, 11:39 PM
 
Location: The High Seas
7,160 posts, read 12,774,885 times
Reputation: 11001
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
The key to thinking rightly about this subject is to first unconditionally acknowlede that God is ALWAYS righteous, holy and just. Whenever we start to imagine that God has 'unfair' or 'unjust' motives, we wrongly presume to 'judge' or 'accuse' God. Whatever God does is/will be the 'right thing', whether we understand it or not.

That said, it's quite popular to simply declare that some people are inescapably trapped by 'inborn' characteristics over which they have no control. I would not presume to conclude that that is 'never' the case, but, scripture seems to clearly paint a much different picture.

Further, there may be some aspect of "creating some 'pots' for destruction" (Jer. 18, Rom 9:20-22) ... that we are simply unable to fully comprehend with our limited, earthly frame-of-reference.
That's good stuff, as are the other posts.

Found this in a page of interpretation of the second passage: "God in His sovereignty chooses some to be vessels of mercy and with the others exhibits a long fuse even though He has every right to destroy them. The vessels of wrath are not foreordained by God or chosen by God to go to hell. They prepare themselves for their ultimate destiny, which they receive because they have rejected the truth about God and His righteousness available only in Christ." Romans 9:19-21 Commentary
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2014, 06:08 AM
 
7,880 posts, read 6,689,081 times
Reputation: 1374
Predestination of souls as a fallacy of deception , as all are called to go and receive Jesus Spirit , and even the mentally disabled to the disturbed mentally , as all may need cleansing from Jesus , and His Blood He shed is worthy to receive anyone ...... See believers of Christ may need to go out of their way and pray for cleansing and ask Jesus for forgiveness for these people and even remove the loony spirits out of people , which is the challenge of the believers of Jesus ...... So people could ask their Minister of their church , or just look at How many people who are mentally challenged or visually people who come in wheel chairs into their church even week and whether they are received or put out of the church
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2014, 10:38 AM
 
Location: In Sticky San Antonio TX
1,401 posts, read 2,456,495 times
Reputation: 1671
With many criminal minds, there is often the (un-thought of) choice of acting in such a way to go to jail. Most chose not to be incarcerated. If we can say any person is willing to die (which is why Jesus was thought of as crazy), we may consider them a bit off mentally. But criminals make choices, with the unfortunate result that they will wind up in jail. When we can see how choice hinders them, it gives a different perspective on choice and free-will. Criminals make choices - how does this fit in with the OP's inquiry? Truly crazy people will cut off their arms with table saws, and do it again and again. Is that what we are talking about? No, the question is more about those who take advantage of others, to rob, steal, or cause injury. Because many persons with severe pathology are typically criminal, and are seen to be making choices relative to actions and limiting liabilities. Consider: there is a morality among those with severe pathology, though it is not often thought about. This is why rapists and child molesters go to protected custody - because among the morality of the criminals, these persons should die. There is no one without choice and no one not making choices.

Having said that, here is the mind of G-d: what is the worse offense - hatred, stealing a purse, fraudulently using a credit card, smacking your kid with anger, or looking lustfully at a person? All were reasons Christ died. Who are we to tie a greater or lesser impunity on one versus another within the Christian framework? Forgiving a murderer is the same grace as forgiving a liar. Relative to choice, it comes to the same thing: is anyone worse after the baptism of faith? This says nothing about the laws of the land or morality, but remains in the heart of G-d and the spirit of Christians. Which way do you want to walk, fellow believer?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2014, 01:09 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 1,079,723 times
Reputation: 302
Not sure about all personality disorders but I've read some encouraging reports.

What Hope is There for Someone With Borderline Personality Disorder? - David Powlison - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2014, 03:12 PM
 
5,508 posts, read 4,413,557 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
Unfortunately, when one lives a lifestyle of self at the expense of God it opens doors for more evil to enter. God warns us of a "lying spirit" in His Word. Some of the manifestations of the lying spirit are:
1. lies
2. strong delusion
3. insinuation
4. exaggeration
5. flattery
6. hypocrisy
7. a "driving zeal"
8. vain imaginations and
9. vain notions
Honestly, this sounds a lot like theists and how they deal with unbelievers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top