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I disagree. Of course we can know. God told us. And you have no way of knowing if I'm wrong or not--since you don't believe scripture, or your church.
Frankly, I'm not sure how a person can even get out of bed in the morning without knowing what to believe. I certainly wouldn't be going on message boards saying people are wrong...but that I can't say that for sure.
Vizio, don`t you know Julians own testimony, that he knows nothing. Not even if God exist. What can this man tell us about spiritual thinks? Nothing at all. Does he know God? But he wants to tell us about Catholicism. He has no right to call you wrong.
How does apostolic succession fit into the picture when at different points in time the Roman Catholic Church had 2 or 3 popes simultaneously?
Also Orthodox Christians will also claim apostolic succession - which one is correct?
To speak of apostolic succession is a joke. What Apostles were they, and you are right, we had a lot of them at the same time, who was the right one. It seems to me, they were false Apostles.
Vizio, don`t you know Julians own testimony, that he knows nothing. Not even if God exist. What can this man tell us about spiritual thinks? Nothing at all. Does he know God? But he wants to tell us about Catholicism. He has no right to call you wrong.
I have never said the religion of Vizio is right or wrong.
However, I find fault with someone that pounds his chest saying "I am more pious than you" or " that my religion is correct and yours is wrong".
You are correct in one thing: Like Socrates said: I only know I know nothing.
To speak of apostolic succession is a joke. What Apostles were they, and you are right, we had a lot of them at the same time, who was the right one. It seems to me, they were false Apostles.
There were twelve Apostles and their mission was to spread Christianity with Sacred Oral Tradition.
The word Apostle itself is consistent with the concept of apostolic Succession.
apostle
O.E. apostol "messenger," especially the 12 witnesses sent forth by Jesus to preach his Gospel, from L.L. apostolus, from Gk. apostolos "messenger, person sent forth," from apostellein "send away, send forth," from apo- "away" (see apo-) + stellein "to send" (cf. epistle).
There were twelve Apostles and their mission was to spread Christianity with Sacred Oral Tradition.
The word Apostle itself is consistent with the concept of apostolic Succession.
apostle
O.E. apostol "messenger," especially the 12 witnesses sent forth by Jesus to preach his Gospel, from L.L. apostolus, from Gk. apostolos "messenger, person sent forth," from apostellein "send away, send forth," from apo- "away" (see apo-) + stellein "to send" (cf. epistle).
You can tell me which sacred oral tradition the Apostles had according to the bible? It is possible that there were false Apostles? I do not refer to the 12 Apostles, but to the successors we had in the history of the RCC, you know the history of Papacy? They were more involved in politics and killing people than preaching the gospel. Do you think they were successors of the Apostle Peter? If you ever meet him he will tell you something, I am sure.
You can tell me which sacred oral tradition the Apostles had according to the bible?
John 20:30
New King James Version (NKJV)
That You May Believe
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
Quote:
It is possible that there were false Apostles? I do not refer to the 12 Apostles, but to the successors we had in the history of the RCC, you know the history of Papacy? They were more involved in politics and killing people than preaching the gospel.
False apostles after the original 12???????????
Then, tell me: Who preserved Christianity for 1500 years? Who spread Christianity to all of Europe and the rest of the world? When Luther came on board Christianity was already the major religion in Europe. Have you studied the history of Christianity?
How could you say they were all false apostles? Have you read Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Augustine, Aquinas? The second generation Apostles are the fathers of Christianity. If not for them you would be a Muslim or a Jew.
For the love of God? Have you ever visited European countries and see the massive legacy of Christianity spread by the Catholic Church? We would not even have Western Civilization without the Church.
Have you ever studied history?
Last edited by Julian658; 01-10-2014 at 03:41 PM..
In the fundamentalist view, the Catholic Church exalts itself over the Bible, adding to God’s Word.
But for Catholics, the fundamentalist puts the Bible in place of the Church as their “paper pope.” Instead of a living Church with a book (the Bible), the fundamentalist has only a book.
Fundamentalists believe that the Bible authorizes the Church. They accept a Church only because it’s in the Bible. Catholics, on the other hand, believe the Bible because the Church canonized it and authored it.
John 20:30
New King James Version (NKJV)
That You May Believe
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
False apostles after the original 12???????????
Then, tell me: Who preserved Christianity for 1500 years? Who spread Christianity to all of Europe and the rest of the world? When Luther came on board Christianity was already the major religion in Europe. Have you studied the history of Christianity?
How could you say they were all false apostles? Have you read Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Augustine, Aquinas? The second generation Apostles are the fathers of Christianity. If not for them you would be a Muslim or a Jew.
For the love of God? Have you ever visited European countries and see the massive legacy of Christianity spread by the Catholic Church? We would not even have Western Civilization without the Church.
Have you ever studied history?
Not all signs are written, right, but what has it to do with the word of God. The miracles that are written are enough to believe. You changed the subject, as so oft.
I was not speaking about Christianity nor about the church itself nor about the church fathers, I was speaking about Papacy that claim to be successors of Peter in the RCC. According to the bible are they true or false Apostles? I have a witness, Jesus Christ himself. When He showed Pope Paul II in hell, He said "they are all the same". You may not believe because you are Catholic, but I believe and history confirms it.
In the fundamentalist view, the Catholic Church exalts itself over the Bible, adding to God’s Word.
But for Catholics, the fundamentalist puts the Bible in place of the Church as their “paper pope.” Instead of a living Church with a book (the Bible), the fundamentalist has only a book.
Fundamentalists believe that the Bible authorizes the Church. They accept a Church only because it’s in the Bible. Catholics, on the other hand, believe the Bible because the Church canonized it and authored it.
It is not a view of the fundamentalists, the RCC claim is that they have the authority to change God`s word. They withheld the bible from the believers, they persecuted the ones, that translated the bible, they cursed every one that used not the Vulgate, the Latin bible. The protestant revolt against the RCC began, when man like Luther discovered the mistakes of Rome, the first he did was to translate the bible into German, that all could read it.
The church has a foundation, the Prophets and Apostles and Jesus Christ himself as cornerstone. If the RCC makes another foundation, sacred oral tradition, placing it above the foundation already laid, they build on sand.
Fundamentalists have no images, no "paper pope", the word of God, what was delivered to us through the prophets and Apostles is from Jesus Christ. We need no other word, not a Catechism nor a Joseph Smith or who they are. The foundation was laid long time ago and they that want to lay another one are corrupt.
A living church does not need a pope as vicar of Christ, the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ and He is the head of His body. I agree, if the fundamental church has only the bible and not the Holy Spirit and Jesus as head, it is just religion, the letter kills. The authority comes not from the church, it comes from Christ himself, HE sends and gives, a great difference.
It is not a view of the fundamentalists, the RCC claim is that they have the authority to change God`s word. They withheld the bible from the believers, they persecuted the ones, that translated the bible, they cursed every one that used not the Vulgate, the Latin bible. The protestant revolt against the RCC began, when man like Luther discovered the mistakes of Rome, the first he did was to translate the bible into German, that all could read it.
The church has a foundation, the Prophets and Apostles and Jesus Christ himself as cornerstone. If the RCC makes another foundation, sacred oral tradition, placing it above the foundation already laid, they build on sand.
Fundamentalists have no images, no "paper pope", the word of God, what was delivered to us through the prophets and Apostles is from Jesus Christ. We need no other word, not a Catechism nor a Joseph Smith or who they are. The foundation was laid long time ago and they that want to lay another one are corrupt.
A living church does not need a pope as vicar of Christ, the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ and He is the head of His body. I agree, if the fundamental church has only the bible and not the Holy Spirit and Jesus as head, it is just religion, the letter kills. The authority comes not from the church, it comes from Christ himself, HE sends and gives, a great difference.
There was no printing press until 1460. The bible or any other book were not widely available like today. Nevertheless, Luther was right, the church had become corrupt.
I don't have issues with your Sola Scriptura, but you are missing the history of Christianity and how it spread through out the world.
A book in a vacuum is not enough for me. I have need for the history and traditions of the church. Your needs are fulfilled by just the book. That does not work for me. The bible is too limiting and imperfect. However, if it works for you I see nothing wrong.
Last edited by Julian658; 01-11-2014 at 08:45 AM..
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