Do Catholics Believe Transubstantiation-The Doctrine of Real Presence?

[travric]

.................The hammer blows of modernity and secularism are causing retreat to religion in many areas. Including Ireland.

I'd be in agreement with that. However, research does show that that 'retreat' is made up of individuals going to and away from different faiths or beliefs. Religion is still there but individuals are choosing to go in and out of faiths, beliefs. From the stats I've seen here in the US, a very Christain country with 78% of the population saying their religious affiliation is Christian, only bout 2% they are atheist and 2% agnostic. These are small percentages now for these two 'unaffiliated' groups. However, it's evident they could grow depending on demographics and teaching policies. Kind of surprised that the govt wants to get in on that apparently repressive policy of ridding the country of Catholic schools.
Is the agenda perhaps that maybe somebody there wants to give 'atheism' a fair shake in a formerly staunch Catholic country?

[Julian658]

Originally Posted by travric

Is the agenda perhaps that maybe somebody there wants to give 'atheism' a fair shake in a formerly staunch Catholic country?

I agree!


I have always said that there is little difference between a conservative bible fundamentalist and a militant level I atheist.

[janelle144]

Do Catholics Believe Transubstantiation-The Doctrine of Real Presence?

Probably the better question should be---does the Catholic Church teach communion is the transubstantiation of Christ?----and the answer is YES.

Do all Catholics believe it? The answer to that question is no, sadly. They should, since it is what the church teaches but we see in the last 50 years or so many core teachings have been misunderstood and the church has been caught in poor catechists for some time. Our priests are now talking about that, especially the younger priests, who are now coming out of seminaries and hopefully they will be correcting the problems.

Many catholic parents put their kids in secular schools only to have them go to religion classes on the weekend and they didn't have the time or attention kids did who went to Catholic school everyday and had religious instruction each day. So much has been lost with those generations. Those kids are parents now and many can't tell their kids what they learned since it wasn't much. Maybe they will put their kids back in Catholic school and their kids will get better instructions. They can teach the parents or the parents can learn along with their kids.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Julian658

I was correct. You sound like a fundamentalist or a level I atheist. The ALL or NOTHING point of view is pathognomonic. Same person in opposite extremes of the spectrum.

Whether God exists or not is a moot point.

I think we can be more mature and leave out the ad hominem insults and invective. Especially given you were over on another forum recently presuming to admonish others to brush up on their debating skills. Discuss what it is I am saying please, and pocket the attacks on the person saying it.

The existence of a god might be moot to you but it is not to multitudes of religious people around the world. It is not just not moot to those people.... it is paramount. Not just to the people, but to the beliefs they purport to hold.

Take for example the topic of this thread which you appear to want to drift from often.... whether Catholics believe in Transubstantiation or not. That belief and what it entails is not just slightly but ENTIRELY dependent on whether there is a god or not. How is that "moot" exactly? Without a god deity the claims about what occurs during Transubstantiation are simply a nonsense mockery. The existence of said god therefore is the exact OPPOSITE of "moot". It is key, core, central and paramount.

Originally Posted by travric

I'd be in agreement with that. However, research does show that that 'retreat' is made up of individuals going to and away from different faiths or beliefs.

Not always. For example the fastest growing minority group in the US has been shown to be atheists.

Further the migration tends to be towards belief systems that...... while they are called religions...... are actually just dilute forms of new age spiritualism...... and definitions of "god" have become increasingly dilute and meaningless to the point they often do not even refer to an intentional or intelligent agent any more.

If you simply operate on the word "religion" without unpacking that, then what you say starts to approach the appearance of being correct and accurate. However when you dig deeper into the figures and meanings you find that this is often not the case at all.

But we are drifting off topic here. This is not a thread about whether people are leaving religions or not. It is a thread about one specific religion, one specific tenet of that religion, and what people in that religion actually know or believe about that tenet. And the point where we started to drift off topic is the one I will therefore return to in an attempt to be the one staying on topic here: From early school age until the actual day of "First communnion" and on up until "Confirmation".... there is little attempt (In Ireland and UK at least) to teach children.... even in Catholic schools..... exactly what the ceremony means, entails and claims.

At most such children are simply taught where to stand, what to say, what prostrations to make, and how to act. Little more.

So one answer to the question "Do Catholics Believe This Doctrine Real?" would be "How could they? Many of them are never even taught what it means or entails!".

Originally Posted by travric

Is the agenda perhaps that maybe somebody there wants to give 'atheism' a fair shake in a formerly staunch Catholic country?

The "agenda" there is quite nicely summed up by the Mission Statement of Atheist Ireland. "Atheist Ireland aims to build a rational, ethical and secular society free from superstition and supernaturalism."

[travric]

The "agenda" there is quite nicely summed up by the Mission Statement of Atheist Ireland. "Atheist Ireland aims to build a rational, ethical and secular society free from superstition and supernaturalism."

Well you know of course the Church will take issue with you there. What I was just wondering about is that question of secular schools vs Catholic schools which is appropriate in a pluralistic society. Here in the US public schools do not teach ANY religious instruction and have no religious affiliation at all. If parents want a religious education for their child they would have to go to schools which have a religious component. Question is are 'secular' schools where 'unaffiliated beliefs' get thir fair shake being built in Ireland for this if that is what is wanted? And if not why? The Church apparently is dealing with some 'pressure' here. Buy why? Everybody knows she does not want to build a 'secular' society. 'Somebody' looks like they're setting the lay of the land for the Church in society.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by travric

Well you know of course the Church will take issue with you there.

And I should care what they want or think.... why exactly?

Originally Posted by travric

What I was just wondering about is that question of secular schools vs Catholic schools which is appropriate in a pluralistic society. Here in the US public schools do not teach ANY religious instruction and have no religious affiliation at all.

That is certainly the ideal. But I have read enough stories of court cases and complaints in the US to know that the ideal is not always met and people with religious agendas do try to teach such things in schools. Also it is a constant and on going war being waged to KEEP that ideal that way. There are moves, and bills, and attempts to get stultifying nonsense like creationism into the schools all the time. A battle that is being fought on many fronts. Usually in the form of litigation, as the creationists are very litigation happy.