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Old 12-05-2007, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities
3,570 posts, read 7,921,171 times
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I believe it's four-fold for me. My faith will always be a factor in every decision I make. We all have a sense of right and wrong. No matter what type of faith you subscribe to, whether to God, Allah or yourself...we all have that moral right and wrong. Logic and intuition most definitely play into the decision making process.

I read an article by a Brigadier General recently. Summing up what he said, torture merely gets the person to tell you what you want to hear. I'll tell you anything you want just so long as you stop torturing me or my child. I'll lie if that's what it takes to end the pain. So ultimately I don't believe torture is an effective means.

There are national and international laws that prohibit torture. A question I had to ask myself is how convenient that the leader was captured. How would he know where the bombs were? He is not the one planting them. Terrorists use fear to win battles. Sure there may be a bomb, but more than likely there isn't one or more. And the fact that they were placed in family dwellings, and not businesses makes me wonder about the validity of the statement that bombs exist.

I would do whatever it took to save as many lives as possible, including not torturing the child.
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:35 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,782,724 times
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Quote:
There are national and international laws that prohibit torture.
National and international laws have never stopped torture or a terrorist act. I mean in the recent past the American government used European airfields to transport 'terrorist' suspects to allied countries in which torture was legal (or at least not frowned upon). The American government even lied to their European allies when they were questioned about the whole affair, because they knew that the Europeans would never aid with torture.
President Bush is the highest government official right? And if I'm not mistaken he is also a Christian, but he had no trouble with his government lying to his allies in order to extract information via torture.
Then again, Bush also had no trouble invading Iraq under a false assumption.

Quote:
How would he know where the bombs were? He is not the one planting them.
Because he is the LEADER of the terrorists? Unlike a parent terrorist leaders know exactly what their terrorists are up to. If they didn't they'd be replaced in a heartbeat.
Most likely the terrorist leader knows more about the plans than the average terrorist, because it is the leader that approves or disapproves the plans and decides when and how the plan will be carried out.

Quote:
And the fact that they were placed in family dwellings, and not businesses makes me wonder about the validity of the statement that bombs exist.
A terrorist is all about striking TERROR and the most logical place to install fear in the enemy is to go after innocent victims.
They are also easier targets than guarded government buildings.
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:22 AM
 
Location: At Sea....and Midwest....
272 posts, read 726,571 times
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PRAY for guidance.....
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:32 AM
 
7,780 posts, read 13,481,511 times
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I was watching The Star Chamber last night, Hoosier, and I couldn't help but think of this thread.

There's a scene where Michael Douglas' character realizes the Star Chamber have sentenced two innocent men to death and a subsequent scene with him and Hal Holbrook in an empty court room. Both those scenes just had undertones of this very thing.

You might want to check it out.

Too much language for the kids....but it's all about ethics....and justice.
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Old 12-12-2007, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,512 posts, read 10,306,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee Mate View Post
PRAY for guidance.....
Pray for guidance and do what? Nothing, and in the meantime thousands of innocent lives are sacrificed. I find it incomprehensible that some people would not use whatever means necessary, whether it be psychological or physical, to get the information to keep such an atrocity from happening.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:53 PM
 
Location: At Sea....and Midwest....
272 posts, read 726,571 times
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O.K.....Let's try this....
You know that the Germans are going to bomb Coventry....because you cracked their codes....But if the Germans become aware that you cracked their codes....they'll develop better codes....and this will very likely lengthen the war....resulting in tens if not hundreds of thousands more dead....
What do you do....? The citizens of Coventry dead....or a longer war...???
Or this....You know of a weapon that has massive destructive power....a potential 'war winner'....and you also know that the enemy is working on this type of weapon...but your not exactly sure how far along they are.....so you start working furiously on developing this type of weapon for your side.
As the war progresses [bad choice of words I know] you realize that the enemy [or an element of the enemy alliance] will literally fight to the last Man Woman and Child.....and such fighting will result in hundreds of thousands if not one million dead on your side.....and untold millions on the enemy side...with the war lasting another decade..... You have the choice of using the super weapon with hundreds of thousands of dead resulting....or you invade with millions of dead resulting....what do you do....????
Really all you CAN do is PRAY. [Personally I don't see how it is even humanly POSSIBLE to make such a decision with out PRAYER...]
You are faced with a moral dilemma that has little precedent. All sorts of "smart" people can urge you this way or that....but the final decision is YOURS....so....where do you go for advice?...What ultimate source do YOU consult for help.....? What do you do...? Is it REALLY a "rational" decision? Are such decisions where it is the case of the "lesser of two evils" REALLY rational? Or are we just kidding ourselves?
O.K. now your example....Say you have captured some key Nazi political leaders...and you KNOW that they have valuable information....information that will DEFINITELY shorten the war...and save lives... Ahh...but these little buggers won't talk....Do you torture these men to get them to divulge the vital information?....
Do I work these guys over? HELL YES I DO...and admittedly I'd even enjoy it....but that is because I have strong anti-Nazi sentiments....
Still even at that juncture...I'd Pray for guidance, because ultimately you have to live with yourself...and your actions. Not one person is going to stick out THEIR neck for you...and everyone will attack you endlessly for what ever decision you decide to make.... You know that your going to make a choice regardless...even doing nothing is a choice...and any choice you make is going to cause you grief....including doing nothing...so...what do YOU do....???

Last edited by Coffee Mate; 12-12-2007 at 08:54 PM.. Reason: ...difficult by definition.....
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,512 posts, read 10,306,858 times
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You really don't want to ask me that question, because I am a hawk, not a dove, and a veteran, and I would think nothing of sacrificing one or two lives to save thousands and yes your right it would be on my conscience and mine alone.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:52 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,782,724 times
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I don't care if I'm a hawk or not.
Some will call me a hawk while others will call me a dove.
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Old 12-15-2007, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,512 posts, read 10,306,858 times
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You know I find it very interesting that everybody on here talks aboutwhat they would do or not do with this scenario when in actuality none of us really know what we would do unless we are put into that position, the only thing we can do is hope that we make the right decisions, I know what I would do because of past experiences and that's all that any one of us can truly speak on, is past experiences.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:17 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,782,724 times
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Quote:
I know what I would do because of past experiences and that's all that any one of us can truly speak on, is past experiences.
True, but like they say in the trading business; past performance is no guarantee of future returns.
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