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Old 11-29-2007, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 9,520,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Now we have conflicting psychiatric reports...I dont trust either one..I will go back to my plan..Alert the people, set my emergency plan in action..Pray..There is a possibility that this terrorist is just a nut case try6ing to pull me into his evilness..My plan does not take me down to evilness, but allows me to do everything in my power to protect the people..My most powerful weapon is the last thing I do...Pray..I have faith that once I have done my duty that God will do his will

I agree with blue on this,if the mayor has done all that he can do then the rest should be left up to the Lord. The mayor is just a man,he is not omniscient ,omnipotent and omnipresent like God.God is immutable and He will deal with the unrighteous.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:26 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,763,614 times
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Originally Posted by blue62
Quote:
Now we have conflicting psychiatric reports...I dont trust either one..
This is often how it goes in real life, you get conflicting information and as the mayor it is up to you to set the course.
It truly is a tough call, but who said that being the mayor is easy?
Quote:
I will go back to my plan..Alert the people, set my emergency plan in action..Pray..
The problem with this solution is that people who panic will not walk orderly to the exit of the city. Panicked people act more like a stampede, which is something you want to avoid. So I think it is safe to assume that this decision will probably only have succeeded in causing a city wide panic which can only lead to the exit higways becoming blocked by all the people who wanted to flee.
This is a bad call when you are a mayor, you will have caused more damage than that you would have prevented
Quote:
There is a possibility that this terrorist is just a nut case try6ing to pull me into his evilness..My plan does not take me down to evilness, but allows me to do everything in my power to protect the people..
Are you sure that you are willing to gamble with the lives of the citizens in your city on only a remote possibility? Personally I would only go for a bet with the most chances of succeeding.
Quote:
My most powerful weapon is the last thing I do...Pray..I have faith that once I have done my duty that God will do his will
There is nothing wrong with prayer, but I don't think prayer will help if you haven't made a carefully weighed decision first. Otherwise you might as well skip the decision making and started praying at the very beginning. Somehow I don't think that a mayor who immediately starts praying inspires confidence in his staff. It might be seen as giving up and I believe that part of the job description of being a leader is to instil confidence in your men and not make them doubt your decision.
Like I said before being a mayor is not an easy task.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities
3,570 posts, read 7,910,568 times
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Ah, did I mention that the mayor is a woman? Why is this important? Not sure. But since I kept seeing people referring to the mayor as a male, thought I should add this tidbit of information.

Also, the conflicting psychiatric information...the second post was my working through the issue. I was working through the issue, so the first post is the one that should be regarded as valid/truth in this scenario.

And Alpha I haven't forgotten your question. I'm still weighing the options. I think I know what I'd do, but still not positive. I do really appreciate all the posts, especially Tricky D's! Thank you!!
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Anywhere but here!
2,800 posts, read 9,254,242 times
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While I know this isn't the popular decision, I would probably have to go with torturing the child. There are a couple of reasons for this.

IF, in fact, the terrorist will give in by seeing his son tortured, one most likely wouldn't have to torture the child too badly. Yes, I know it's wrong and heartless to torture at all, however..........

Think of who this child's father is! He's a terrorist! What do you think the child is going to be like when he becomes his father's age? He is ALSO GOING TO BE A TERRORIST! By torturing the child, you may be also teaching him a bit of a lesson about pain and suffering and what it causes...to him as an individual as well as seeing the anguish his father may endure seeing it!

Yes, it's cruel to torture ANYONE, much less a child...but there is good that could come from it. You could actually be helping the child in the long run, but even if it didn't, you would still be saving MANY LIVES in the process!
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:55 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,763,614 times
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Originally Posted by kawgpz550
Quote:
Think of who this child's father is! He's a terrorist! What do you think the child is going to be like when he becomes his father's age? He is ALSO GOING TO BE A TERRORIST! By torturing the child, you may be also teaching him a bit of a lesson about pain and suffering and what it causes...to him as an individual as well as seeing the anguish his father may endure seeing it!
Euh, just because the father is a terrorist doesn't mean that the child would automatically become a terrorist too.
But If you torture the child in front of the father, the chances are big that this traumatic event will indeed change him into a terrorist.

Unfortunately, in situations like these there are no sure bets or easy way outs.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:03 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,649,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawgpz550 View Post
Yes, I know it's wrong and heartless to torture at all, however..........
If it's wrong, it's wrong!

Quote:
Think of who this child's father is! He's a terrorist! What do you think the child is going to be like when he becomes his father's age? He is ALSO GOING TO BE A TERRORIST! By torturing the child, you may be also teaching him a bit of a lesson about pain and suffering and what it causes...to him as an individual as well as seeing the anguish his father may endure seeing it!

Yes, it's cruel to torture ANYONE, much less a child...but there is good that could come from it. You could actually be helping the child in the long run, but even if it didn't, you would still be saving MANY LIVES in the process!
I don't think Jesus thought of who people's parents were, when it came to His love. IMO, showing love to the child would do far more to teach him not to become a terrorist than to torture him, which would only cause hatred.

Love can NEVER be taught by hatred...

Last edited by cg81; 11-29-2007 at 02:16 PM..
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:17 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,763,614 times
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Originally Posted by cg81
Quote:
If it's wrong, it's wrong!
True, but as a mayor you have to make decisions for the good of your city, not just your own conscience or your personal religion.
Wouldn't that be selfish? Why should your conscience be more important than the lives of 1000's of other people?

If you can't make such decisions then you should never have chosen to accept the job as a mayor, but be a philosopher or priest instead.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:41 PM
 
7,806 posts, read 10,666,569 times
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Default Random thoughts/Questions:

If we are talking purely from the standpoint of ethics, then I have a few comments/observations before I even attempt to weigh in on this one!

1- Take out of the equation the "terrorist" aspect. Eliminate all the emotional components. As well, disregard the psychiatric assessment. (It isn't relative in the philosophical ethical/moral equation.) The actual gender of the mayor is moot. The moral/ethical dilemma is still the same regardless of gender and emotions.

2- The essential question is that of "Do the ends justify the means?" --And if so, when? Under what circumstances? How are they justified?

3- Is the value of one life = that of millions of others? For those who say yes, how does your perception and perspective change when you and your family and loved ones are those who are going to perish? (By reintroducing the "emotional" aspect to the equation, does that change the equation? --And should it?

4- Is a bad act ever justifiable in order to bring about a good end?

5- If you remove the emotional components in the equation, ("terrorist" "child" "torture") and disregard the psyche eval (where did that come from!?) then you are left with the question of whether there are moral absolutes. --Do they really exist?

6- Hoosier, have you been reading Alan Dershowitz?
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:06 PM
 
7,806 posts, read 10,666,569 times
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Default And....

Is there a "hierarchy" to "sin?" (Is it any wonder that June shouldn't be responding to this thread?)

If sin is sin, then is there any difference between my "sinning" by lying and "sinning" by torturing the child in an attempt to save millions of lives from death? Is all sin is equal? How would that effect my answer? In Hoosier's equation, (although I realize he is asking/seeking the Christian ethical response) if I am in a life boat after the Titanic has sunk, and all of you who have responded to this thread are in there with me, and one of us has to be forced out of the life boat in order that it may remain afloat, thereby saving the other 50 of us, that would be the same ethical dilemma. Would it be morally permissable to push out June, (knowing that I would immediate perish in the icy Atlantic) in order that the rest of you could remain afloat and live?

The conundrum is whether there is any circumstance in which committing an "evil act" is justified in order to bring about a greater good for the vast majority of people.

--While I realize I have hardly answered the OP, I am merely writing a stream of consciousness in attempting to reframe the equation in order to more fully think it through. (Although I suspect I know what I'd do.)
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,668 posts, read 20,259,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Is there a "hierarchy" to "sin?" (Is it any wonder that June shouldn't be responding to this thread?)

If sin is sin, then is there any difference between my "sinning" by lying and "sinning" by torturing the child in an attempt to save millions of lives from death? Is all sin is equal? How would that effect my answer? In Hoosier's equation, (although I realize he is asking/seeking the Christian ethical response) if I am in a life boat after the Titanic has sunk, and all of you who have responded to this thread are in there with me, and one of us has to be forced out of the life boat in order that it may remain afloat, thereby saving the other 50 of us, that would be the same ethical dilemma. Would it be morally permissable to push out June, (knowing that I would immediate perish in the icy Atlantic) in order that the rest of you could remain afloat and live?

The conundrum is whether there is any circumstance in which committing an "evil act" is justified in order to bring about a greater good for the vast majority of people.

--While I realize I have hardly answered the OP, I am merely writing a stream of consciousness in attempting to reframe the equation in order to more fully think it through. (Although I suspect I know what I'd do.)
Well, in the life boat scenario, I think Alpha would volunteer to go overboard so dilemna would be solved, right Alpha?

But, seriously, I've thought about what you just brought up and sometimes it does seem that one moral principle may override another ... at least in a lesser case of evil. Such as --if the Nazi's are at your door and want to know if there are Jews hiding in your attic (and there are!) should you lie? I would say "yes."
(And yes, I do believe there is a "hierarchy of sin." ) But torturing someone who is not part of the military...especially a child???? Seems different. About the lying thing-didn't in the Bible the midwives lie about hiding baby Moses in order to save his life? I think so and they seemed to be commended for this act, not condemned. Just some thoughts...
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