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Yes it (OSAS) will doom anyone because somebody who forfeits their faith is counting on Finn's words that despite Jesus saying
John 15:5-7 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
that they will look at you and quote you as saying... Don't listen to Jesus because "Falling away" does not mean God would take back the gift of salvation. If that was true, no one could ever be sure if they are still saved, and that would be the opposite of trusting God for your salvation. You would always wonder if you have worked hard enough to earn your salvation.
OSAS is for the person who forfeits their faith is an alternative salvation message.
The point of my post was to say that a lot of people who believe in OSAS remain in Christ, and bear fruit. Contrary to your claim, they do listen to Jesus. They are saved, because Christ said so, and no one can take it away from them. At the same time tThere are people who believe in OSAS, who are not saved, as there are many who work themselved to death thinking they are earning salvation, but they are not saved either.
If you could lose your salvation then ALL of us would be lost. Never forget Christian, your name was written in God's book of life from before the foundation of the world. One of the biggest problems among Christians today is that their beliefs are Man centered. It's, if I do this or If I do that and so on. Christianity is God centered and it would do everyone well to remember and contemplate that fact. Because of the completely false idea that the individual has a CHOICE of whether they will "accept" or reject God and his gospel it logically follows that those same people would believe that they could choose to become a Christian and then change their mind and choose not to be a Christian. This idea is totally false and is in fact a lie of the devil. These heretical theologies always completely ignore the complete and total sovereignty of God Almighty. They do in fact elevate the will of Man over the omnipotence of God. It's just another manifestation of the total depravity of the pride of Man that puts himself above the will and the plans of God.
In his word God tells us that there is absolutely "NOTHING" that can separate us from "The love of God that is in Christ Jesus" His word also tells us that God is Faithful to "Complete" the work begun in us and to eventually bring us ALL to glory.
Even a true Christian can believe it's possible to lose their salvation. The reasons for this are many. Ignorance of the bible is the main reason but it's always tied to the spiritual attack we are under from Satan and the forces of evil. The person who believes this lie can never have that blessed assurance that is so important in the life of a child of God. They wonder if they have lost it because they have done this or that. This lie of the devil is spiritually debilitating and wreaks havoc in the life of those who believe it.
AS for me I will stand on the promises of God, sinner that I am. Though I struggle against my sin and my unbelief I stand firm in the blessed assurance that Jesus is mine!
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood
There is a reason why there are so many warnings found in the Bible about an individual can choose to walk away and renunciate their faith or for that matter why OT Israel being pleaded with to stop renouncing it's faith .. because it's the truth.
That's why it's mockery of God and his Word to conclude " if such person was ever saved in the first place" .... really?
Israel never really "was ever saved in the first place" .... that's the only conclusion that their forced theology can lead to. Right?
Jeremiah 6:30 "They are called rejected silver, because the Lord has rejected them.”
Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.
Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
the answer to God's question in Ezekiel is answered either:
A) an individual can choose to walk away and renunciate their faith.
or
B) Israel never really "was ever saved in the first place"
Amen, Twin !
I'm thankful our Lord Jesus has the few here with the courage to come against the false teachings and teachers with the deception they proclaim.
These few that are reaching out and speaking in the Spirit the truth of God so that those who maybe waiving in their faith or are wanting to know God's truth and information they need to possibly witness to someone in their life.
I'm really beginning to see a heart of compromising has a big play in this "OSAS." Somewhere along the way in the life of one who is hoping for this to be true has compromised their life. I say this as I have a few individuals in my life walking in "OSAS" and fallen for the lies of this teaching and have been around them long enough to pin point it too a spirit of compromising in the flesh.
It's like the want their cake and eat it to....
There is a reason why there are so many warnings found in the Bible about an individual can choose to walk away and renunciate their faith or for that matter why OT Israel being pleaded with to stop renouncing it's faith .. because it's the truth.
That's why it's mockery of God and his Word to conclude " if such person was ever saved in the first place" .... really?
Israel never really "was ever saved in the first place" .... that's the only conclusion that their forced theology can lead to. Right?
Jeremiah 6:30 "They are called rejected silver, because the Lord has rejected them.”
Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.
Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
the answer to God's question in Ezekiel is answered either:
A) an individual can choose to walk away and renunciate their faith.
or
B) Israel never really "was ever saved in the first place"
What a complete and utter misapplication of scripture we have here.
In the passage from Jeremiah God is rejecting people who Have NO FAITH, Who not only are extremely sinful but DON"T even believe in any of God's revelations in the first place. These people are not loosing something they NEVER HAD. They were rejected just as silver is because of their impurities. Impurities we all have and are only overlooked by God because of our FAITH in his promises. God's means of salvation were no different under the old covenant.
What can I say about your understanding of the passage from Ezekiel? It really makes me wonder about your understanding of the basics of the Gospel. Firstly, In B, what in the world makes you think that being a person of the nation of Israel conferred salvation upon that person? Your comment is actually correct and Israel never was saved in the first place. Individuals are saved not nations!
Your supposition in A is completely irrelevant and not something addressed at all in the passage. The passage is talking about unbelievers and those who reject God and everything about him.
Amen, Twin !
I'm thankful our Lord Jesus has the few here with the courage to come against the false teachings and teachers with the deception they proclaim.
These few that are reaching out and speaking in the Spirit the truth of God so that those who maybe waiving in their faith or are wanting to know God's truth and information they need to possibly witness to someone in their life.
I'm really beginning to see a heart of compromising has a big play in this "OSAS." Somewhere along the way in the life of one who is hoping for this to be true has compromised their life. I say this as I have a few individuals in my life walking in "OSAS" and fallen for the lies of this teaching and have been around them long enough to pin point it too a spirit of compromising in the flesh.
It's like the want their cake and eat it to....
And I know many who believe you are saved through works who are "compromising in the flesh". What does that mean? It means salvation is not dependent on whether or not you agree with OSAS. You can be saved either way. OSAS does not save you, Jesus saves you.
It seems some believers are allowing something like this to divide the church.
The Bible says that you CAN know that you have eternal life. You may not agree with it, but you cannot honestly deny that it says it.
As John wrote,
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
I agree with the apostle John. If you don't, you don't.
And the believer cannot throw away his own salvation. The Bible affirms the eternal security of the believer.
Mike
Which of his names gives eternal life? The old name "Jesus" or his new name which the Bible did not explicitly say, but it means "the word of God"? (Rev 3:12, Rev 19)
What a complete and utter misapplication of scripture we have here.
In the passage from Jeremiah God is rejecting people who Have NO FAITH, Who not only are extremely sinful but DON"T even believe in any of God's revelations in the first place. These people are not loosing something they NEVER HAD. They were rejected just as silver is because of their impurities. Impurities we all have and are only overlooked by God because of our FAITH in his promises. God's means of salvation were no different under the old covenant.
What can I say about your understanding of the passage from Ezekiel? It really makes me wonder about your understanding of the basics of the Gospel. Firstly, In B, what in the world makes you think that being a person of the nation of Israel conferred salvation upon that person? Your comment is actually correct and Israel never was saved in the first place. Individuals are saved not nations!
Your supposition in A is completely irrelevant and not something addressed at all in the passage. The passage is talking about unbelievers and those who reject God and everything about him.
I understand what the proponents of OSAS thrive on .... the notion they have the ability to read into the heart of somebody to determine if whether or not somebody was truly saved to begin with.
If the context is wrong concerning Ezekiel then you need to inform God that he ought to have said that to the surrounding people's from other countries since they too had NO FAITH .... but of course he made no such proclamation about other such people from other nations. There is a reason why only the Children of Israel was the "CHOSEN" people by God and not that the Children of Israel "CHOOSE" to be the people of God
Therefore it's not surprising that a forced OSAS theology can't make any sense of what Jesus spoke as recorded in John 15:5-7 without altering other scriptures. For if the premise is as the OSAS concludes "they never had faith to begin with" it would be senseless for Jesus to say to such people "If you remain in me and I in you" if they "never had faith to begin with"
John 15:5-7 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
The reason it would be senseless for Jesus to say this is very simple .... people who "never had faith to begin with" are by default people who are "apart from me".
The point of my post was to say that a lot of people who believe in OSAS remain in Christ, and bear fruit. Contrary to your claim, they do listen to Jesus. They are saved, because Christ said so, and no one can take it away from them. At the same time tThere are people who believe in OSAS, who are not saved, as there are many who work themselved to death thinking they are earning salvation, but they are not saved either.
I appreciate your explanation and if you cared to re-read what I stated earlier you see that I said there are two separate truth that are taught which must remain separate for both are taught by God as truth.
That God teaches
that people can\ does fall from faith
that He will keep us safe
This is no different than the beyond human reason to what Jesus said about baptism that it's necessary for salvation but not when it comes to damnation
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, <---- (necessary ) but whoever does not believe will be condemned. <------ (but not absolutely necessary)
What this shows is why Reform theology and it's Reformers are so appropriately named. If one come from a Reformed mindset, one must reform what Jesus spoke into what makes human sense instead of letting what was spoken be the truth when it appears to be contrary to one another.
Which is why I've come to the conclusion that Acts 20:30 is including the Reform theology and all of it's forced theologies onto things which Jesus taught found in scriptures.
It is not surprising that a forced theology like Decision theology will breed others like:
OSAS
Millennialism
the removal of the Means of Grace in the sacraments (nothing more than symbolic)
There is a reason why there are so many warnings found in the Bible about an individual can choose to walk away and renunciate their faith or for that matter why OT Israel being pleaded with to stop renouncing it's faith .. because it's the truth.
That's why it's mockery of God and his Word to conclude " if such person was ever saved in the first place" .... really?
Israel never really "was ever saved in the first place" .... that's the only conclusion that their forced theology can lead to. Right?
Some Israeli generations were saved, and when new generations were born, they grew apart from God, so yes, some newer generations were never saved, even if their ancestors had been. The new generations typically paid the price for their disobedience and the nation was brought back to repentance. This happened over and over in the OT. Your view suggests all Israelites were born saved, but later in life departed from faith? I think you know that is not how it works.
There is no mockery in saying there are people who were never saved, because there a millions of such people.
I understand what the proponents of OSAS thrive on .... the notion they have the ability to read into the heart of somebody to determine if whether or not somebody was truly saved to begin with.
If the context is wrong concerning Ezekiel then you need to inform God that he ought to have said that to the surrounding people's from other countries since they too had NO FAITH .... but of course he made no such proclamation about other such people from other nations. There is a reason why only the Children of Israel was the "CHOSEN" people by God and not that the Children of Israel "CHOOSE" to be the people of God
Therefore it's not surprising that a forced OSAS theology can't make any sense of what Jesus spoke as recorded in John 15:5-7 without altering other scriptures. For if the premise is as the OSAS concludes "they never had faith to begin with" it would be senseless for Jesus to say to such people "If you remain in me and I in you" if they "never had faith to begin with"
John 15:5-7 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
The reason it would be senseless for Jesus to say this is very simple .... people who "never had faith to begin with" are by default people who are "apart from me".
What can I say regarding this post, it's just wrong on so many points. Firstly, because I believe in the "preservation of the saints" in no way at all causes me to believe I can see into the heart of anyone. It is not up to me to determine what is only known to God. In fact Jesus' command to "Judge not" is regarding this very subject.
Secondly, your point about the Children of Israel being the "chosen" is completely meaningless without some understanding or Theology of just what they were chosen for. Your apparent belief that they were chosen in order to be saved is just plain error. The proof is clear. Biblical Israel has been totally and utterly destroyed. Nothing at all remains of biblical Israel. The Temple worship, the priesthood, the essential genealogies, God's laws regarding the theocratic nation have been wiped out since at least 70AD.
Finally, your assertion that what Jesus said would be senseless if a person could lose their salvation is in it's self senseless. If that is how you understand scripture then all of it is senseless. Never forget that the main thrust of His teaching was to believe in Him and His message of salvation. Is that command senseless? It must be since the "Natural Man" has absolutely no ability at all to carry out this command. The natural Man is pictured as a corpse. Spiritually he is dead and not only are the things of God nonsense to Him but are offensive as well. So, here is Jesus commanding people to do what is totally impossible for them to do and it's the only hope in the entire universe they have. What kind of nonsense is that I ask you? Jesus makes a statement in answer to another impossible situation that also applies here. "What is impossible for Man is possible for God".
The bible and God's purposes are full of unanswerable mysteries. Here is an example of a good one. How can it be that God takes all the credit for the saving of a soul but at the same time takes no blame for those who are lost even though those who are lost have no ability to save themselves.
I just thank the LORD and praise his Holy name that he has out of His sovereign will, chosen me as an object for his special grace. I have no fear that come what may he will forsake me or abandon me. If I develop dementia and curse his name, I'm still secure in his love because he has chosen me as his child as an heir to the promises he has made. "NOTHING CAN SEPARATE ME FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS". That statement is pretty clear. Do you understand the meaning of NOTHING?
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