Can TRUE Christians Lose Their Salvation? (crucified, churches, preaching, belief)

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Wardendresden

Actually, we disagree in that you choose what parts you like and emphasize those while denigrating the rest--in other words you editorialize the scripture to fit the doctrine that you swallowed hook, line and sinker--because it surely was not due to individual scholarship.

In contrast, I have accepted EVERYTHING that either Jesus or John said--everything. Since nowhere do the scriptures state a born again christian need not serve Christ or not be His servant--NOWHERE--I must reach the conclusion that God expects both faith in His Son and a life that reflects living His commandments.

No, you do not accept what Jesus said. Jesus said that eternal life is a gift. A gift is free. You do not have to work for something that is free. And you cannot work for eternal life because eternal life is by grace which absolutely forbids any works on our part in playing any part in receiving eternal life. Jesus did all the work in making salvation possible for those who simply trust in His finished work on the Cross.

The believer who has been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ is expected to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. But if he doesn't it doesn't mean that he isn't eternally saved. The believer is kept by the power of God. Not by his own efforts.

The Corinthian church was full of carnal but eternally saved believers who were full of strife and jealousy and arrogance. Paul said he could not talk to them as spiritual men, but as carnal men who were walking like mere men (as though they were unbelievers even though they were eternally saved believers). Paul told them that the Spirit of God dwelt in them and that they belonged to Christ. But at that point they were not spiritually mature believers.

The eternally saved believer in Jesus Christ can behave just as though he was an unbeliever, as the Corinthians at that time were doing.

You reject the testimony of Clear Lens, an amateur researcher of ancient manuscripts,

He needs to understand what I said above.

you reject the parts of the scripture that speak expressly against your easy-believism, you state The 'if' to which you must be referring in 1 John 5:9 refers to the fact that if we receive the testimony of men---, when it says no such thing. You have added to the scripture, you have disobeyed the very command you often quote out of Revelation about adding or subtracting anything to scripture.

What you refer to as 'easy believism' is the fact that the Scriptures state that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. Jesus Himself said that eternal life is not by works but by believing on Him. There is no Scripture which contradicts this. You insist on making discipleship a requirement for eternal life when the Bible does not. The Bible distinguishes between what is required for eternal life which is simply to trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and what is required to be a disciple of Christ which is to pick up your cross and follow Jesus. They are two different things.

Now as to your reference to 1 John 5:9 not having the phrase 'If we receive the testimony of men', all we need to do is to actually look at the verse.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10] The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11] And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12] He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Therefore, why do you claim that it does not say what it clearly does say?


As the passage says,' if we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater'. And that testimony is that the one who has Christ has eternal life. Every believer has Christ regardless of the condition of his spiritual life on this earth. Even if the believer is faithless, Christ remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:11). Every believer is part of the body of Christ. Even spiritually non-productive believers.

And more than that, Mike, you simply don't know Jesus.

Now here you go again making arrogant, self righteous, judgmental statements about others.

I do know Him, and I recognize Him in others. I have literally tried to run away from Him and cannot--He tracks me down. That's what happens to people who have the spirit of God in their heart. They feel convicted not only when they sin, but when they omit obeying His commands. And they feel great joy in serving God. I try every time to do it as anonymously as I can because the Lord commanded that the right hand should not know what the left is doing. And I do not do it for praise, I do it because I am a servant and my Lord commands it. I don't deserve praise for that--I've only met His expectation. An employer may reward an employee for going over and beyond what is required of them, but rarely can they expect praise for just being average. And that's what I am when I obey my Lord--average. You don't earn salvation by doing your duty. But if you don't do your duty, then you are not in the employ of the Master.

Boasting.

And you need to learn the difference between what is required for eternal life which again is to simply believe on Christ, and what is required to be a disciple which is to pick up your cross and follow Jesus.

You have not learned how to discern the spirits because you don't love Jesus enough.

Here you presume to tell me that I don't love Jesus enough.

Here are some of the things you said about me on my own thread.

You said that I have not been born again.
You said that I live an unregenerated life.
You said that I haven't found that faith. (your definition of faith)
You accused me of worshipping the apostle Paul and of glorifying him.
You said I have a problem with works because I can't produce them.

No, I don't have a problem with works. They simply have nothing to do with receiving the free gift of eternal life. Works are a part of the already eternally saved believer's spiritually productive life.

As I've said before, it is an all or nothing proposition--and that's not something you hear from many pulpits anymore. Easy-believism is anti-Jesus, anti-Christian, stands completely against the Holy God that is taught everywhere in the scripture, both Old and New Testaments. You may holding to a form of godliness but your heart is denying the power behind it, because you consider serving the Master to be a good, but unnecessary part of one's spiritual life.

No, I do not consider serving the Lord Jesus Christ to be an unnecessary part of the believer's spiritual life. I have repeatedly said that works belong to the believer's spiritual life. But works have nothing to do with receiving the free gift of eternal life.

You falsely accuse grace oriented believers who understand that eternal life is a free gift received by grace through faith alone in Christ alone of being spiritually lazy.

You cannot be a part of God's family without faith in His Son, Jesus Christ.

This is true.

And you cannot be a part of that family if you don't obey God's commandments.

This is false. Having been born again by grace though faith in Christ Jesus, the believer is a part of the royal family of God regardless whether he is obedient or disobedient.

Hebrews 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6] FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7] It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? [NASB]

The disobedient believer is still a son and gets disciplined.

This has been shown to you time and time again, and you continue to persist in unbelief.

All you have shown is that you don't know what you are talking about.

As that same John wrote in the first of his epistles, "our love for Him comes as a result of His loving us first." But how can you say you "love Him" if you are teaching that serving Him is an unnecessary part of being a part of His family? Oh, it's nice, but it's not necessary. The god you are worshiping just isn't very Holy.

I have never said that serving Christ is not necessary. What I have said, and what the Bible says is that works are not a requirement for receiving the free gift of eternal life.

If the already eternally saved believer in Christ is to grow up spiritually then he must pick up his cross and follow Jesus. This is the process of experiential sanctification which is different than the believer's positional sanctification. These are two different categories of sanctification. Every believer is positionally sanctified. But experiential sanctification is the process of growing spiritually and which most believers don't do. But they are still eternally saved.

How do we know, really KNOW that we love Jesus--that we are sold out to Him. That He is the master of our lives. John is very, very clear on this--"Hereby do we know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments." (I John 2:3).


You cannot talk your way out of that verse. You either know Him or you do not--and you KNOW that you know Him IF you keep His commandments!! That's it. That's how you know. If you don't have that assurance because you are failing to keep His commandments, then you have reason to be afraid--very afraid--regardless of what anyone else has told you about what it "means." You can read that verse for yourself. So can everyone else--and each of us should look into our own soul to see if we have the Doctrine of Assurance--without it no other doctrine means a single thing. You cannot be sure of your salvation, if you are living just like everyone else in the world. If no one can distinguish you from anyone else by your actions, by what you watch or read, by the off-color jokes you chuckle at, by how you treat other people--even by your political views of either supporting or not supporting help for the homeless or those needing health care or providing mental health care facilities--then what difference did God make in your life when you "believed?" He didn't make any change--and He didn't make any change because you did NOT really believe.

Being eternally saved does not mean that you know God. The believer in Christ is commanded to grow in the grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Every believer has eternal life whether or not he grows in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

The believer can be sure of his salvation because the testimony of God is that if you have the Son you have eternal life (1 John 5:9-13). The believer need only believe the testimony of God.

People absolutely despise the commitment required to become a real Christian. I see that resistance from you in every word you write.

Dresden, you can't see anything as long as you refuse to pull your head out of sand.

The grace oriented believer who believes the Biblically taught fact that eternal salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works, does not despise commitment. He recognizes that commitment is part of the spiritual life. Not a factor in receiving the free gift of eternal life.

If doing good works is a burden--then you don't know Jesus. Make a real commitment to Jesus Christ, He will not let you go. You will try to follow in His footsteps because of the great joy it produces in your heart. Following His commandments then becomes a privilege and an honor.

Doing good works is no burden at all. Works are part of the believer's spiritual life. They simply have nothing to do with receiving eternal life. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works.

Loving Jesus is not just something emotional; loving Jesus means changing our lives, reforming our lives, working on our personalities and characters, overcoming sinful habits, stretching ourselves to love as Jesus loved. Loving Jesus means thinking about ourselves and others as Jesus thinks. If you aren't doing that then you don't have faith--ZERO, NONE, NADA--it's just not there, regardless of the amount of biblical knowledge or certainty you might think you have. You just don't know Him--and that should make you aware that He doesn't know you---and that should scare you even more.

Faith with regard to the issue of eternal salvation is simply trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. That's all. If the believer doesn't have a spiritually productive life it doesn't mean that he hasn't trusted in the finished work of Christ on the Cross by which he is eternally saved. You keep trying to make discipleship a necessity for eternal life. It isn't. They are two different things.

I know Jesus quite well actually.

You really need to get rid of your arrogant, self righteous, judgmental, accusative attitude. It reeks worse than skunk spray.

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by pastorALly

Here are verses cited by both Arminians and Calvinists to support their positions on whether a TRUE Christians can lose their salvation. Though many will figure this out anyway I'm not indicating which set of verses are Arminian, and which are Calvinist to hopefuly avoid preconceived ideas. Since many on this forum have an aversion to Paul, I purposely avoided verses attributed to him.

Question: If this was the only passage of Scripture that existed, how would you answer the question, "Can true Christians lose their salvation?"

• Try to clear your mind of any ideas you already have.
• Read each verse separately.
• For each verse answer Yes, No, or Unsure.
• Answer after reading one verse at a time.
• Post the list with the most 'Yes' votes as your poll answer. by

LIST A

1. Matthew 7:19-23 - “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
   
2. Matthew 10:22 - All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
   
3. Matthew 24:9-13 - “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
   
4. Luke 12:46 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
   
5. Luke 13:6-9 - Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
   
6. John 8:31-32 - To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
   
7. 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
   
8. 2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
   
9. 1 John 2:24 - See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
   
10. Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

LIST B

1. Psalm 37:23-28 - If the LORD delights in a man’s way, he makes his steps firm; though he stumble, he will not fall, for the LORD upholds him with his hand. For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever.
   
2. John 6:37-40 - “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   
3. John 10:26-30 - “You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
   
4. John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
   
5. 1 Peter 1:3-5 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
   
6. 1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
   
7. 1 John 5:18 - We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
   
8. Jude 24-25 - To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
   
9. John 3:14-16 - “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
   
10. John 5:24 - “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

I did not vote in your poll as I believe the first list, list A is scripture of warning from our Lord Jesus.
And the second list, list B is scripture that our Lord Jesus has given are promises for those who endure believing and our protection, our hope in Him for eternal life from our Father.
Actually I believe list A & B go hand in hand together which ever way you look or put it.

I do believe one can walk away from their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and have posted many times the evidence of scripture to why I believe this to be true.
There are so many Threads on this subject all one needs to do is a search at the top of forum and they can get all kinds of thoughts on this subject.... To answer their request for their study.

I most definitely agree with the post I copy and paste below........ augiedogie post
(saving space and time )

The OP is assuming that set a and set b are contradictory, which they are not. Once converted, a Christian already has eternal life, forgiveness of sins, the Holy Spirit, their name in the book of life, they are part of God's kingdom, a disciple and servant of God, a child of God and part of the body of Christ. These are all gifts of God's grace to all who believe. But people do change their minds. They do decide they'd rather chase money or fame, they'd rather be popular and follow the ways of the world. If that happens, then they can lose their salvation because they no longer love God above all things. Instead, now they have made money or something else their god. They have fallen back into idolatry, and have walked away from God of their own free will. God did not force them. His offer of forgiveness is always there, but some refuse to repent and so they are lost. Ezekiel 33:11-19 explains this all very well.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin

I most definitely agree with the post I copy and paste below........ augiedogie post
(saving space and time )

Aguiedogie got it right.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by JBrown0830

My words do not come to me as eloquently as yours. You've said exactly what I've been trying to say to those who believe in OSAS! If OSAS were biblical, we would not need the entire bible and it's commandments. We would only need two or three scriptures to tell us we just needed to believe on Him and all will be ok. No need for repentance either. Foul up your lives and commit to a life of sin because you've already believed in The Lord Jesus Christ.

I cannot wrap my mind around this misconstrued, tainted and watered down version of the bible. No wonder Christians have falling away over the years. They're so confused.

So far, the people I've come across who believe in OSAS, will always tell me the bible does contradict itself. HOW IS THAT BIBLICAL? They only proclaim there are contradictions in order to live the lifestyle of a OSAS believer.

And they always quote the saaaaaame verse. Do they not have another one they can use? If they have to believe on Him to be saved, then that means they have to believe in Him. To believe in Him you have to know who He is. To know who He is you have to read His word and obey His commandments.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Conclusion... The word was God and the word was made flesh and dwelt among men. If you're going to believe on Him, you have to believe on ALL of Him (He's one in the same). Therefore, God and His Word do not, can not and will not ever contradict itself. God is without sin, He can not lie. Believe in all the scriptures, not just the ones that propagate the OSAS agenda and half hearted beliefs.

As a friend of mine said:

if this reasoning comes from someone of the once saved always saved mindset, you might want to point out that by marginalizing all the godly warnings, he/she has just proposed that a substantial portion of the new testament containing warnings to keep faithful and not lose our spiritual focus are worthless, since god would never let us fall or sin to a point we lose salvation. why warn somebody not to play with fire if they can’t get burned?

[JuniPearl]

Originally Posted by expatca

as a friend of mine said:

If this reasoning comes from someone of the once saved always saved mindset, you might want to point out that by marginalizing all the godly warnings, he/she has just proposed that a substantial portion of the new testament containing warnings to keep faithful and not lose our spiritual focus are worthless, since god would never let us fall or sin to a point we lose salvation. why warn somebody not to play with fire if they can’t get burned?

that is exactly right!!!!

[Wardendresden]

Originally Posted by expatCA

As a friend of mine said:

if this reasoning comes from someone of the once saved always saved mindset, you might want to point out that by marginalizing all the godly warnings, he/she has just proposed that a substantial portion of the new testament containing warnings to keep faithful and not lose our spiritual focus are worthless, since god would never let us fall or sin to a point we lose salvation. why warn somebody not to play with fire if they can’t get burned?

Amen!! And it's a warning that even a Christian of 51 years takes seriously. And those who are really not Christians always fail to hear.

[augiedogie]

Warden: I've got another 10 years on my life and I still take these words very seriously.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Eze 33:18 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.
Eze 33:19 And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.

[Wardendresden]

Originally Posted by Mike555

You really need to get rid of your arrogant, self righteous, judgmental, accusative attitude. It reeks worse than skunk spray.

And, Mike, almost everyone knows Jesus. The question is---does Jesus know you. And if you are not obedient, then regardless of whether you know Him, He does not know you.

To all who would claim His name and live in iniquity, it once more returns to the Sermon on the Mount:

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

(Matt. 7:23)

The author of 2nd Timothy (almost certainly not the self-made apostle Paul) wrote almost the same words in 2:19 of his letter:

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

We see the beginning of Jesus entire message--HIS ENTIRE MESSAGE--with John the Baptist on the banks of the Jordan. "Repent for the kingdom of heaven in near!" (Matt 3:2) After His temptation in the desert, the Bible says, "From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (Matt 4:17)

This sets the tone for the ministry of Jesus--and is a prelude to the Sermon on the Mount. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus describes what characteristics will mark His followers, His children. It is to this point that the entire Bible focuses. This one message will highlight everything else that Jesus says or does.

And so in the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount in Matt 5 He says:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

Did I get that right. Ooops, no I didn't, so let's try again.

Beatitude One:
"Blessed are the poor in in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." That's better, let's try the next one--

Beatitude Two:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

Did I get that right. Ooops, missed it again, so once more---
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted."

Beatitude Three:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

Did I get that right. Ooops, still wrong, so once more---
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."

Beatitude Four:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

Doggone!! I've still got it wrong. Here's the correct answer--
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, FOR THEY SHALL BE FILLED."

Beatitude Five:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

Oh, no, I'm really missing the boat here, let me try again--
"Blessed are the merciful, FOR THEY WILL BE SHOWN MERCY."

Beatitude Six:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

Uh oh, I'm still not correct--this is Jesus' first big sermon to thousands of people--I just know He is going to make the statement about the most important doctrine in the Bible--
"Blessed are the pure in heart, FOR THEY WILL SEE GOD."

Beatitude Seven:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

NO!!! I'm getting nervous here, where is that great doctrine? Surely He will proclaim it in His first major address to the world--I mean, these people are all following Him aren't they?
"Blessed are the peacemakers, FOR THEY WILL BE CALLED SONS OF GOD."

Beatitude Eight:
"Blessed are those who have faith in Me, for they shall have salvation."

WHAT!!! I made a mistake. This is arguably one of the largest crowds Jesus ever spoke too and He doesn't even scratch on the greatest doctrine of faith only? What is wrong with Jesus!!!
"Blessed are those who are persecuted BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!"
--------------------------------

Jesus calls to repentance---and crowds begin to follow Him--and then, in the biggest moment of His ministry to date, He has an opportunity to tell them what are the most important things in His own heart and He talks about mercy and purity, and peacmaking, and those who suffer BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. He speaks of humility. He speaks of SEEKING RIGHTEOUSNESS and being filled because of it.

Seems very strange to this old Christian, that the Son of God would ignore what Mike555 holds as the most important doctrine in the Bible, and instead say to people---LIVE RIGHT!! TREAT OTHERS RIGHT!! BE HUMBLE!

He didn't talk about belief in Himself, instead He said "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand so it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS AND PRAISE YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN."

I wonder why He didn't say "Tell everyone about your faith in Me. Shout it from the housetops!! Show it to everyone because people will praise your father in heaven?"

He didn't say it, because the world doesn't recognize faith in those who have no good deeds. He didn't say it because those who believe in Him without a change in heart aren't really His followers.

Even Spurgeon said--

"There must be a true and actual abandonment of sin and a turning unto righteousness in real act and deed in every day life. Repentance to be sure, must be entire. How many will say, 'Sir, I will renounce this sin and the other, but there are certain darling lusts which I must keep and hold.'"

"Oh, sirs, in God's name let me tell you, it is not the giving up of one sin, nor 50 sins which is true repentance. It is the solemn renunciation of EVERY sin."
Charles Spurgeon in a sermon titled Turn or Burn, preached Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens, Dec. 7, 1856

Need I remind you that like Luther whom you spurn for saying that separating faith and works is like separating heat and light from fire, Spurgeon was another who taught "faith only?"

The real Christian can not more separate works from his faith. Jesus pointed out in the sermon on the mount what he felt was the most important ideas of His ministry--and faith was small---but then it only needs to be as large as a mustard seed, while deeds of righteousness in the life of a believer should be like a lamp set before all men.

MIke, you may know Jesus. The devils know Jesus. But the question is, does Jesus know you. Do you display in your life the beatitudes of His followers. If you do not, He will say "Depart from me, ye worker of iniquity. I don't care how much you know about the Bible, I never knew you."

I'm sorry you are defensive against the message of God and wish to take it out on me with the name calling, but God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, if you will but repent and find the kingdom of heaven dwelling within you. Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Wardendresden

And, Mike, almost everyone knows Jesus. The question is---does Jesus know you. And if you are not obedient, then regardless of whether you know Him, He does not know you.

Jesus knows the disobedient believer. The disobedient believer is disciplined as a son as stated in Hebrews 12:5-7.

Hebrews 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6] FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7] It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

The ones who in Matthew 7:23 Jesus said He will say He didn't know were people who were prophesying, casting out demons, and performing many miracles all in Christ's name (Verse 22) which would be considered good works. (Sounds like some TV preachers). But despite their good works Jesus will say He didn't know them. Which means that they did not simply trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

The real Christian can not more separate works from his faith. Jesus pointed out in the sermon on the mount what he felt was the most important ideas of His ministry--and faith was small---but then it only needs to be as large as a mustard seed, while deeds of righteousness in the life of a believer should be like a lamp set before all men.

The carnal Corinthians were real Christians as already pointed out.

MIke, you may know Jesus. The devils know Jesus. But the question is, does Jesus know you. Do you display in your life the beatitudes of His followers. If you do not, He will say "Depart from me, ye worker of iniquity. I don't care how much you know about the Bible, I never knew you."

The ones who in Matthew 7:23 Jesus said He will say He didn't know were people who were prophesying, casting out demons, and performing many miracles all in Christ's name (Verse 22) which would be considered good works. (Sounds like some TV preachers). But despite their good works Jesus will say He didn't know them. Which means that they not simply trusted in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

I'm sorry you are defensive against the message of God and wish to take it out on me with the name calling, but God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, if you will but repent and find the kingdom of heaven dwelling within you. Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

I have not taken anything out on you. As everyone can plainly see, it is you who have made all manner of accusations against me. Let's take a look at them again.

I posted these in post #41.

Here You presume to tell me that I don't love Jesus enough.

Here are some of the things you said about me on my own thread. The Doctrine of Eternal Security

You said that I have not been born again. Post #594
You said that I live an unregenerated life. Post #635
You said that I haven't found that faith. (your definition of faith) Post #591
You accused me of worshipping the apostle Paul and of glorifying him. Post #570
You said I have a problem with works because I can't produce them. Post #594

No, I don't have a problem with works. They simply have nothing to do with receiving the free gift of eternal life. Works are a part of the already eternally saved believer's spiritually productive life.

You accused me of having a legalistic mindset - Post #488 simply because I pointed out that you are a legalist. You are the one who thinks you must work for your salvation. Not me.

You accused me of being a fan of Jesus but not a follower. Post#500.

And in Post #517 you made this statement about what you were going to do. - ''Am I judgmental about such Christians? You betcha!!! Judgment must begin at the House of God---and I'm going to attack the "free and easy" Christianity over and over and over until it goes where it belongs''.

And that is the reason you have made these and other accusations about me.

No, I am not defensive against the message of God, nor have I taken anything out on you. Indeed, as seen from the above accusations you have made against me in your little crusade to stamp out what you call 'free and easy' Christianity it is the other way around. And you not only did it on my own thread, but you have brought your little battle over here. And all because I state what the Word of God says. Namely, that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9.)


Now you really need to stop with your personal attacks if for no other reason than you are in violation of forum rules.

A mature adult may disagree with someone but does not make false allegations against those with whom he disagrees, as you have done.

[Mikelee81]

I think correct doctrine must lead to one resting in their position of Saved forgiven in Christ protected by the Father seen as His child in Christ so one can walk the Christian walk.

I believe all that are truly saved will persevere unto the end as they are being preserved by Christ, our sole mediator High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek who will save those to the uttermost that come to God by Him. (book of Hebrews)