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Jesus says that He will reward every man according to his works. Since salvation is a gift, the only 'work' that we can give is to give up ourselves, (our souls), and if we do that, we will then be following Jesus and His life will flow from us, and people will see 'His works'.
Hello trumpethim.
I would respectfully disagree with this interpretation. It seems far more intuitive and straightforward to interpret "works" in the common sense of "actions," particularly in light of the Epistle of James as mentioned in my earlier post. If our "work" was essentially the same as "having faith," then James would not have been so adamant about drawing the distinction.
This verse says nothing about the righteous. It speaks of "those blessed of My Father".
I am so intrigued by the variety of interpretations of Matthew 25. You're right: verse 25 does not say anything about "the righteous." Verse 37, however, does. And it's these individuals who will be blessed with life eternal.
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It also doesn't say anything about eternal torment. In English it says, "everlasting punishment", but when it was written in the first century Greek, it says "age abiding chastisement".
I agree with you. Like you, I do not believe in eternal toment.
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The context of this section of scripture is NOT about eternity OR heaven. It also says nothing about slaying the goats. It is a description about Jesus coming to begin His Kingdom, but it is not a description about an eternity of Heaven. It is about Jesus' Kingdom. A Kingdom is ruled by a King, and it is quite evident in verse 31 that the Throne being spoken about is the Kingly Throne of Jesus that He will occupy during His reign of 1000 years. That Kingdom lasts 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years, it says Jesus will have placed everything under His feet, (including death), and He will then give it to His Father.
At the Second Coming to begin the Kingdom, the ELECT are gathered from the whole earth, (Matt. 24:31) and it says that the elect are the ones that will rule and reign with Jesus during the Kingdom Age. (Rev 20:6) These elect are the ones that followed Jesus, and they are chosen from the foundation of the world.
I'm not coming against you thrillobyte, Katzpur, OR Vizio. But each of you are reading slightly more into it than what is there.
To me, it sounds like you're the one who is reading more into it than what's there. When you say that the elect are chosen from the foundation of the world, are you teaching predestination? I'm confused, because I've never run into anyone who does not believe in eternal torment but who, at the same time, believes in predestination. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, though. If I am, I hoe you'll correct me.
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Jesus says that He will reward every man according to his works. Since salvation is a gift, the only 'work' that we can give is to give up ourselves, (our souls), and if we do that, we will then be following Jesus and His life will flow from us, and people will see 'His works'.
I don't see how you can say that salvation is a gift if you're going to attach any conditions to it at all. If "giving up ourselves" is a "work," then salvation does require something of us, after all. It makes no sense to insist that no works are required of us if you're going to turn around and say that we are required to give up ourselves.
Jesus said that He will reward every man according to his works. Why must there be only one work? During the next couple of weeks, athletes from all over the world are going to be competing against one another in the Olympic Winter Games. After each event, the top three will be awarded medals according to their skill and performance. The individual whose skill and performance is the greatest will receive an award of greater value than the other two. I'm not suggesting that God is going to rank us from 1 to whatever. But I am suggesting that if we are to be rewarded according to our works, greater works will result in a greater heavenly reward. The more faithful and obedient a person is to Jesus Christ, the greater will be his reward in heaven. That's what "rewarding someone according to his works" seems to mean to me.
I would respectfully disagree with this interpretation. It seems far more intuitive and straightforward to interpret "works" in the common sense of "actions," particularly in light of the Epistle of James as mentioned in my earlier post. If our "work" was essentially the same as "having faith," then James would not have been so adamant about drawing the distinction.
That's the way I see it.
Thanks.
I look at James like this: His statement sums it up. He said. "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Anyone can say they have faith, but true faith brings along with it an abiding in Christ, and when that 'abiding in Christ' is active, the Holy Spirit flows through a person, and we are doing His will, and not our own. So, in this manner, the one that says he has faith but there is no evidence of it by works that flow through the person by the Holy Spirit, then his faith naturally comes into question. James is saying that he has faith, and the proof of that faith is the works that he does through his faith. It's like the old 'horse and buggy'. The faith is the horse. It knows how to pull the buggy, but since it isn't pulling a buggy, it is tied to the stall. The other horse is showing how it's faith is active by pulling the buggy.
You quoted it well: James 2:18-20 (NASB):
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
The demons have faith that God is who He says He is, but they certainly do not do any works for Him. But, it is also necessary to do more than just claim that you are doing such and such for God. Many people do this, but it can be from many different motives. Only God knows the heart.
Somehow, we might be trying to say the same thing. Semantics at its best.
I am so intrigued by the variety of interpretations of Matthew 25. You're right: verse 25 does not say anything about "the righteous." Verse 37, however, does. And it's these individuals who will be blessed with life eternal.
I agree with you. Like you, I do not believe in eternal toment.
To me, it sounds like you're the one who is reading more into it than what's there. When you say that the elect are chosen from the foundation of the world, are you teaching predestination? I'm confused, because I've never run into anyone who does not believe in eternal torment but who, at the same time, believes in predestination. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, though. If I am, I hoe you'll correct me.
I don't see how you can say that salvation is a gift if you're going to attach any conditions to it at all. If "giving up ourselves" is a "work," then salvation does require something of us, after all. It makes no sense to insist that no works are required of us if you're going to turn around and say that we are required to give up ourselves.
Jesus said that He will reward every man according to his works. Why must there be only one work? During the next couple of weeks, athletes from all over the world are going to be competing against one another in the Olympic Winter Games. After each event, the top three will be awarded medals according to their skill and performance. The individual whose skill and performance is the greatest will receive an award of greater value than the other two. I'm not suggesting that God is going to rank us from 1 to whatever. But I am suggesting that if we are to be rewarded according to our works, greater works will result in a greater heavenly reward. The more faithful and obedient a person is to Jesus Christ, the greater will be his reward in heaven. That's what "rewarding someone according to his works" seems to mean to me.
By the way, welcome to the forum!
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[SIZE=3]Well, you got me on the 'righteous' word. But that doesn'tchange what I am saying. There are a lot of different interpretations for thesethings, especially 'eternal life'. I consider 'life eternal' as something that is given to us. It is Holy,yes, but it is the ability to have 'forever' living inside us. It is like anengine that needs no fuel. It is self sustaining. The Father gave it to Jesus,because He fully trusted Him. He will give it to us when He fully trusts us. Idon't expect this to be given to everyone at once. The 'righteous' in verse 37are given eternal life, why??? Because they followed the shepherd! This is whatwe are expected to do. And Jesus further explains how to follow Him in theverses I quoted from Matthew 16. [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=3]Now the predestination thing...Yes, I believe it because itis spoken of in the Bible, but the question remains, exactly what does it mean?My wife freaks when I mention it, but she just hasn't taken the time to examine it, and she relates it to denominational thinking. [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=3]God said that He chose us from the foundation of the world, right? But He alsochose everyone, right? Well, then, what does He mean? He means that He chosewhen we would accept Him fully, and the path that we would choose. Do you rememberGideon? Practically the whole nation of Israelites came to fight the battle.But God said that if anyone was afraid, then just go home. The majority thenleft and went home. No condemnation, no belittling. This just wasn't for them.He then had the rest drink water. Only 300 were chosen for the job. This whole thing is not about "who is better", or "my dog's bigger than your dog", it's about an order that God has set up. The ones that are alive at the First Resurrection are those that have a specific job to do. They will be ruling and reigning with Jesus during the millennium. Remember the job that Peter did with Ananias and Saphira? This was a taste of the judgment during the millennium, and only certain people are qualified. Other judgment will be just being able to show Who God is and what He is like. It will be severe, yet at the same time a complete blessing. "Through His judgments, the world will learn righteousness." God gave the elect what they need for this job, and just like the Apostles, Jesus chose them. From the 12 Apostles, the whole world of that day was evangelized, and in similar manner, the ones chosen to be resurrected for the millennium are those that followed Jesus closely, they know Him, they know His Word, and they will be trusted by God to do a certain work...to begin the work of putting everything under the feet of Jesus during a thousand years. They will be his 'Generals', so to speak. These people are spoken of in the Old Testament, and the New. They will be the spark that ignites the New Age of the Kingdom.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=3]As far as rewarding those for their works, I agree with what you said. There just seems to be some confusion in word meaning and understanding, but I, like you, are constantly learning, and I am SO anxious to know the whole plan. I believe that the time from Moses to Jesus was the age of Passover. Then from Jesus to our day is the Age of Pentecost. Since the Holy Spirit was not given totally to us, but 'in earnest', I believe that we are approaching the millennium, which will be the age of Tabernacles, when we will 'tabernacle' with Him. The Spirit will first flow totally to the 'elect', but of course they are then resurrected. Jesus also said He would abide "in us". I look forward to more understanding, but as the Jewish religion refused to accept the Savior and finally that Temple was destroyed, the present day church is balking at the new age that is coming, because of many factors that they won't consider, even though they are prophesied and written in the word. They have tried to piece it together, as the old Jews tried, but they are incapable, because they have little knowledge of the fullness that awaits. But, as with everything, they will eventually learn. [/SIZE]
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I don't think we are necessarily far apart in our thinking, but I do think there is a gap between us. As I stated in an earlier post, I think it is an oversimplification to imply that good works are a mere sign of faith, which appears to be a prevailing opinion. Rather, I see them as a single, inseparable entity. In short, one accepts Christ by acting in his name and rejects him by refusing to follow his commands.
While far from a "proof text," Mark 9:41-42 is an example of this (NASB):
"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward. Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea
More succinctly, John 14:15 (NASB):
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Therefore, keeping the commandments of Jesus (which includes a lot of elements that many would consider "works") is the very same faith that saves.
You and thrillobyte both mentioned that you are universalists, while Vizio is a believer in eternal suffering. I am an annihilationist, so it seems we have a good bit of diversity among us. That might make for a fun thread some time.
I don't think we are necessarily far apart in our thinking, but I do think there is a gap between us. As I stated in an earlier post, I think it is an oversimplification to imply that good works are a mere sign of faith, which appears to be a prevailing opinion. Rather, I see them as a single, inseparable entity. In short, one accepts Christ by acting in his name and rejects him by refusing to follow his commands.
While far from a "proof text," Mark 9:41-42 is an example of this (NASB):
"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward. Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea
More succinctly, John 14:15 (NASB):
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Therefore, keeping the commandments of Jesus (which includes a lot of elements that many would consider "works") is the very same faith that saves.
You and thrillobyte both mentioned that you are universalists, while Vizio is a believer in eternal suffering. I am an annihilationist, so it seems we have a good bit of diversity among us. That might make for a fun thread some time.
Thanks.
Like you said before in another post. these things are intertwined very closely. Some would be searching for the "what makes me saved" portion. In my personal experience, I obey the commandments because they are a part of me, just as He is a part of me. Have I ever, or would I ever break one or more of them? I would be a liar if I said I don't sin, but that is because I am mortal. Would I ever purposefully break one of them? I think not. I think that the faith that keeps me following the commandments is, yes, the same faith that saves, as long as I recognize that the following of the commands in itself is not a salvation. Only the person himself would know where his motivation lies. But we can go around and around about these things till the end. And yes, I believe that we are very close to each other in views. I believe that we are even close to the thought of the ET believers. It's just a few things that are askew. We tend to pick and peck and split hairs over things that we should be looking and asking God which way that He created the means of salvation, rather than trying to protect a certain dogma.
I examined the annihilist view before, but once I found that I had an all powerful God, it made no sense to think that He would cast anyone aside in any manner. I believe the division of the human being is the key here, and when I found especially Jesus and Paul speaking in those terms, things fell into place for me.
You are right, this diversity can make for a breaking forth of answers, especially if we treat each other as equals.
Like you said before in another post. these things are intertwined very closely. Some would be searching for the "what makes me saved" portion. In my personal experience, I obey the commandments because they are a part of me, just as He is a part of me. Have I ever, or would I ever break one or more of them? I would be a liar if I said I don't sin, but that is because I am mortal. Would I ever purposefully break one of them? I think not. I think that the faith that keeps me following the commandments is, yes, the same faith that saves, as long as I recognize that the following of the commands in itself is not a salvation. Only the person himself would know where his motivation lies. But we can go around and around about these things till the end. And yes, I believe that we are very close to each other in views. I believe that we are even close to the thought of the ET believers. It's just a few things that are askew. We tend to pick and peck and split hairs over things that we should be looking and asking God which way that He created the means of salvation, rather than trying to protect a certain dogma.
I examined the annihilist view before, but once I found that I had an all powerful God, it made no sense to think that He would cast anyone aside in any manner. I believe the division of the human being is the key here, and when I found especially Jesus and Paul speaking in those terms, things fell into place for me.
You are right, this diversity can make for a breaking forth of answers, especially if we treat each other as equals.
Trumpethim, I am by no definition a universalist, yet at the same time its words of yours that I bolded above which make me think that I have more in common with universalists than I do with the modern version that passes for evangelical christianity -- out of which I came.
If one can't live for God. If one can only be like every other person in the world who has no belief in God, then what is the point? If Christ has made a difference in your heart, He is able to make a difference in how you live. You have a true faith, even if it is not the same one that I have, because "the faith that keeps me following the commandments is, yes, the same faith that saves,"
The Greek word Kardia-heart, refers to the mind which is the thinking part of the soul.
Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart (kardia) has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart (kardia) and turn, and I would heal them.’
A person understands with his mind. So a head belief and a heart belief are the same thing. It is what you think that is important. And in the issue of salvation, it is what you think about Jesus that is important. If by the gospel message a person is persuaded that Jesus died on the Cross and therefore trusts in Christ alone then he has eternal life. We are saved by the righteousness of Christ. Not by our works of righteousness.
Your conclusions are ironically correct . . . but your reasons tied to some mysterious, inexplicable belief mechanism are not. Yes we are eternally saved because we have nothing to do with it! Jesus did that. But it IS the "love of God and each other" that we must cultivate to achieve the cover of Christ's grace and love for us all. If we do not sanctify our imperfections by repentance and attuning our Spirits to His love for us all . . . we will reap what we sow in the consuming fire of God's pure love after death. Our imperfections will be refined out as dross . . . that will not be pleasant. If you have ever felt genuine remorse for something that could not ever be remedied . . . you might have some idea what it will be like.
Jesus speaking:
John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes on Me will live even if he dies, 26] and everyone who lives and believes on Me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27] and everyone who lives and believes on Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
In the Gospel of John alone, the necessity of belief is stated 95 times. And I have personally counted them.
John wrote:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Believing in the finished work of Christ on the Cross is simply accepting as true the proposition that Jesus died for our sins, and therefore simply trusting in that fact in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. God offers eternal life but we must chose to receive it. That is done by believing on Christ.
You can have your opinion. But as for me, I believe what Jesus said. I believe what the Bible says.
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