U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-31-2014, 10:54 AM
 
9,594 posts, read 9,570,626 times
Reputation: 2795

Advertisements

If a person wanting to know about salvation stumbled onto a shredded Bible and found only Matthew 25 to go by his instant reaction would be that Jesus says we are saved from eternal torment in hell by helping others and nothing else. Note that Jesus never once mentions to the sheep and goats that belief in Him is a prerequisite to the good works or that it is even necessary to enter the kingdom of God; it is based entirely on helping the least of Jesus' family (mankind) struggling just to keep food in their mouths and a warm blanket over their shoulders.

Clear as day.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-31-2014, 11:08 AM
 
19,952 posts, read 11,551,871 times
Reputation: 1942
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If a person wanting to know about salvation stumbled onto a shredded Bible and found only Matthew 25 to go by his instant reaction would be that Jesus says we are saved from eternal torment in hell by helping others and nothing else. Note that Jesus never once mentions to the sheep and goats that belief in Him is a prerequisite to the good works or that it is even necessary to enter the kingdom of God; it is based entirely on helping the least of Jesus' family (mankind) struggling just to keep food in their mouths and a warm blanket over their shoulders.

Clear as day.
No...it really doesn't. Verse 34 states that the ones that do the good works are ALREADY believers. It's descriptive of believers...it does not suggest that they become righteous by doing so. Don't confuse a symptom with a cause.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
13,221 posts, read 5,642,504 times
Reputation: 1348
Right, it's not specifically stated that the ones who did not do the good works are believers. For that you have to go to a similar passage in Matt 7: "22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 02:36 PM
 
9,594 posts, read 9,570,626 times
Reputation: 2795
Remember I said that if someone stumbled onto just Matthew 25, in such a critical passage that talks about their eternal destiny and what that eternal destiny is based on, surely Jesus would have indicated somewhere in the passage that salvation is incumbent on both belief in Him as Savior AND helping their fellow man. But Jesus gives no indication whatsoever of the first prerequisite of having to believe in Him when certainly He would have mentioned or at the very least hinted at it--AND one cannot infer from other passages, "Well, it states elsewhere in the Bible that one needs to believe in Jesus in order to be saved." I am NOT disputing that one needs Jesus to be saved. I am disputing that one, reading Matthew 25 and knowing nothing else about the scriptures, would gather with good reason that Jesus did not expect us to accept Him as Lord and Savior to enter the kingdom of heaven, only helping their fellow man who are in need. If Jesus wanted to express in the clearest possible terms what was required of us to be brought into the kingdom of heaven Jesus would have said to the goats something along the lines of "Inasmuch as you did not believe in and trust on Me AND did not do these things to these, the least of My brethren, you did not do them to me."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 02:39 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,343,242 times
Reputation: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No...it really doesn't. Verse 34 states that the ones that do the good works are ALREADY believers. It's descriptive of believers...it does not suggest that they become righteous by doing so. Don't confuse a symptom with a cause.
Notice, nothing is said of believers/unbelievers but NATIONS as apposed to CHRIST'S BRETHREN.

Jesus never calls the nations "My brethren" but tells them what they did TO His brethren.

Also, the judgment of the NATIONS as to how they treated Christ's brethren during their great tribulation is not concerning Heaven or Hell but rather concerning NATIONS being kicked out of the kingdom to live in outer darkness (which is a way of saying "living under the curse of the iron club"), and concerning some NATIONS being blessed by the blessings of the kingdom He will set up on the earth during the 1000 year reign.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 02:57 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 11,551,871 times
Reputation: 1942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Notice, nothing is said of believers/unbelievers but NATIONS as apposed to CHRIST'S BRETHREN.

Jesus never calls the nations "My brethren" but tells them what they did TO His brethren.

Also, the judgment of the NATIONS as to how they treated Christ's brethren during their great tribulation is not concerning Heaven or Hell but rather concerning NATIONS being kicked out of the kingdom to live in outer darkness (which is a way of saying "living under the curse of the iron club"), and concerning some NATIONS being blessed by the blessings of the kingdom He will set up on the earth during the 1000 year reign.
Actually...in verse 32 it does say "people". And it says the unrighteous will be cast into eternal torment. So yah...it is about heaven and hell--and people going to one or the other.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 03:10 PM
 
9,594 posts, read 9,570,626 times
Reputation: 2795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Notice, nothing is said of believers/unbelievers but NATIONS as apposed to CHRIST'S BRETHREN.

Jesus never calls the nations "My brethren" but tells them what they did TO His brethren.

Also, the judgment of the NATIONS as to how they treated Christ's brethren during their great tribulation is not concerning Heaven or Hell but rather concerning NATIONS being kicked out of the kingdom to live in outer darkness (which is a way of saying "living under the curse of the iron club"), and concerning some NATIONS being blessed by the blessings of the kingdom He will set up on the earth during the 1000 year reign.
Why are you dragging end time theology into this? It has nothing to do with the Great Judgment. We're talking strictly about what Jesus lays out as the elements needed for salvation based on one of the great, if not the greatest, judgment passages in all of scripture, Matthew 25.

In fact, so clear is Jesus' statement about sole good works that we could go so far as to say that the traditional formula of "salvation = faith + good works" could be entirely reversed, thus "salvation = good works + [faith]. This makes Paul pretty near a false prophet with his signature theology "By grace [alone] are you saved" as Matthew 25 so clearly refutes.

By the way, nations are not leaders or dirt; nations are the people who compose those nations, so Jesus is not referring to a plot of real estate nor is He referring to leaders who govern these plots of real estate. Traditionalists love to rationalize this way to escape the fact that in this passage "nations" are the people inhabiting them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 03:22 PM
 
2,065 posts, read 3,981,300 times
Reputation: 969
OK....So, does the rest of the Bible support that? How can one verse stand alone and be the foundation of belief?

So for most... What happens next is more verses that support your belief. The list. My challenge to you is... does the Bible have verses you must reconcile before you claim spiritual nirvana about salvation by works?

Good study doesn't just seek to affirm, instead it seeks to prove or disprove. Get back to us on this one.

...just sayin'
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 03:27 PM
 
1,472 posts, read 921,226 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No...it really doesn't. Verse 34 states that the ones that do the good works are ALREADY believers. It's descriptive of believers...it does not suggest that they become righteous by doing so. Don't confuse a symptom with a cause.
Actually...I don't see where it says that. It doesn't ever say believed or said any "sinners prayer"...the passage is just about who served the poor and who didn't...and some how the end of this passage is used as the be all end all verse against URs by Saint Augustine and almost all modern Christian apologists... ..Just saying..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2014, 03:40 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 11,551,871 times
Reputation: 1942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Actually...I don't see where it says that.
Did you read it? It clearly says they are the ones that are predestined from the foundation of the world

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. "



Quote:

It doesn't ever say believed or said any "sinners prayer"...the passage is just about who served the poor and who didn't...and some how the end of this passage is used as the be all end all verse against URs by Saint Augustine and almost all modern Christian apologists... ..Just saying..
I have no idea where you got the idea of the "sinners prayer". I agree the concept is not Biblical.

But if you read the passage, you will see that the ones that are serving the poor are the ones that have been blessed by God, and have been prepared since the foundation of the world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top