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Old 12-27-2011, 06:00 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,155,186 times
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Well, it was part of the discipleship process and the partners prayed out loud for each other and asked one another if they had certain struggles, needs to be prayed for, and so on. But it was kind of intense. God bless.

 
Old 12-27-2011, 07:04 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,203 times
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Sounds like it was disturbing.

Glad you got out.
 
Old 12-27-2011, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 209,925 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Respectfully disagreed. There are an overwhelming number of examples in the Bible that when read in harmony clearly demonstrate that no water baptism is required for salvation.
I imagine there are a number of examples that demonstration that no water baptism is required for salvation. But I believe all of those examples took place prior to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus when baptism wasn't required at all.

Quote:
"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10.
This verse says nothing at all about the requirement or lack of requirement of baptism.

Quote:
"Then John gave this testimony: I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’" John 1:32.
There is nothing here that says anything about whether or not water baptism is required or not.

Quote:
"Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?' Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' John 6:28-29.
Again nothing here about water baptism, either.

Quote:
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:35.
Nothing here about water baptism, either.

Quote:
In my mind, when I read the New Testament, I believe that the spiritual baptism occurs when a person: (1) declares with his/her mouth that Jesus is Lord; and (2) believes in his/her heart that Jesus was raised from the dead. The water baptism is a symbolic public demonstration of this event.
That's the problem. It's in your mind. It's not in scripture.

Instead of citing verses that say nothing at all about baptism in an attempt to prove that baptism is not required, why not address the verses that actually say something about baptism?
 
Old 12-28-2011, 04:54 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,940,616 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
I remember going to a couple of Kip McKean's conferences and several retreats in the mountains. There were some nice things about the fellowship and I can say that when I was a member of the Church of Christ, I began to study the scriptures more because the emphasis was on learning the scriptures, so I am thankful for that. I hope that the cult like tactics are not still being used. Did you have a prayer partner? God bless.
Shana, you just clarified for me a very important piece of information. Kip McKean was head/founderof the crossroads movement which came out of Gainesville, Florida and Boston if I remember right. This goes back about 30 years in my memory so I've forgotten a lot. This movement targeted college campuses, and they did things just like the other poster described.

Let me assure everyone reading this post, that McKean, and his crossroads movement along with their practices are not mainstream church of Christ. They may bear the name church of Christ but the main group vehemently abhor their practices. Me included.

Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 05:03 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,940,616 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Sounds like it was disturbing.

Glad you got out.
Please read my last post to Shana. I am a member of the church of Christ. I'm so sorry that you had experiences with this group. They were known as the crossroads movement. They were headed up by Kip McKean, and their practices were not accepted by the mainline churches of Christ. I don't know if these people are still around, but I pray they are not. They do not represent what I know to be the church of Christ.

Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 05:09 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,940,616 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Well, it was part of the discipleship process and the partners prayed out loud for each other and asked one another if they had certain struggles, needs to be prayed for, and so on. But it was kind of intense. God bless.
They were known for their prayer partners, which is not scriptural. There is nothing wrong with sharing a prayer with a friend, but not the way they did it.

Heck, no wonder you got away from them. I don't blame you. So I take it you never hooked up with any mainline church of Christ? Were they your only exposure to a coC?

Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 05:26 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,940,616 times
Reputation: 228
The Boston church of Christ is part of the International churches of Christ movement. They are not a part of mainline churches of Christ of which I am a member. It is important that you be able to recognize them and not confuse them with the mainline churches of Christ. I assure you, mainline churches DO NOT follow their discipling practices.

Here is an article about them.

The Boston Movement

Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 05:30 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,940,616 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Now to the doctrine. I think it's clear that musical instruments should be permitted in a worship service. Psalm 92 states in relevant part:

"It is good to give thanks to the LORD
And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High;
To declare Your lovingkindness in the morning
And Your faithfulness by night,
3 With the ten-stringed lute and with the harp,
[With resounding music upon the lyre.
4 For You, O LORD, have made me glad by what You )have done,
I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands."

If it's good enough for the Psalmist to worship with instruments, then it's good enough for me too.
Except it isn't a practice carried over into the New Testament.

Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 05:44 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,940,616 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Respectfully disagreed. There are an overwhelming number of examples in the Bible that when read in harmony clearly demonstrate that no water baptism is required for salvation.

"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10.

"Then John gave this testimony: I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’" John 1:32.

"Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' John 6:28-29.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:35.

In my mind, when I read the New Testament, I believe that the spiritual baptism occurs when a person: (1) declares with his/her mouth that Jesus is Lord; and (2) believes in his/her heart that Jesus was raised from the dead. The water baptism is a symbolic public demonstration of this event.
Sounds like you went from one bad group only to be indoctrinated with another bad group's interpretation of scriptures. You did not learn from the scriptures "water baptism is a symbolic public demonstration." You were taught this. You were engrained with the doctrine of faith alone saves. You have been duped, my friend.

Water baptism is commanded by Jesus. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Peter, Jesus' ambassador, commanded the Jews on the day of Pentecost to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. (Acts 2:38))

Peter also says "baptism saves." (1 Peter 3:21)

Paul was told to arise and be baptized and have your sins washed away. (Acts 22:16)

You can't just pick and choose the verses you like and throw out the above verses.

Yes of course we must have faith, and we must repent. We also must confess Jesus before men. But we also need to be baptized. Jesus commanded it. That should be enough reason for anyone to obey.

The scriptures NEVER call baptism a public declaration. Baptism is the point in time that God has chosen for us to humbly submit ourselves to His will. It is at that point that He sheds His grace on us, and forgives our sins. There is nothing magical in the water. It's all about submitting to the will of the Father.

And yes, this is what the mainline churches of Christ teach.

Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 06:19 AM
 
91 posts, read 59,203 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Please read my last post to Shana. I am a member of the church of Christ. I'm so sorry that you had experiences with this group. They were known as the crossroads movement. They were headed up by Kip McKean, and their practices were not accepted by the mainline churches of Christ. I don't know if these people are still around, but I pray they are not. They do not represent what I know to be the church of Christ.

Katie
No need for you to apologize at all. I did not even realize that there were automous churches of Christ out there, so it's a good clarification for me. Also, it's good to know that you are not involved in a church like that.
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