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Old 06-27-2008, 06:29 PM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,152,505 times
Reputation: 3744

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovablechevy View Post
which i am doubting you have since you can't see the context of this passage (which is complete common sense). *sigh...*

anyway, i have said all i have to say on the subject.

Thank you for your compliment

Nicodemus was thinking natural thoughts. Christ was speaking of spiritual things. Being baptized is a physical act , but the forgiveness of sins is spiritual. Being buried with Christ is spiritual, as is being risen to newness of life. Being obedient to the gospel is spiritual.
The Old Covenant was physical. The New is spiritual. Natural man cannot understand the spiritual :

1 Corinthians 2.14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 
Old 06-27-2008, 09:37 PM
JLA
 
627 posts, read 1,888,330 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
Thank you for your compliment

Nicodemus was thinking natural thoughts. Christ was speaking of spiritual things. Being baptized is a physical act , but the forgiveness of sins is spiritual. Being buried with Christ is spiritual, as is being risen to newness of life. Being obedient to the gospel is spiritual.
The Old Covenant was physical. The New is spiritual. Natural man cannot understand the spiritual :

1 Corinthians 2.14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Why would you consider the Old Covenant as "physical"? Did not God come up with the terms and conditions of the covenant? Or was it man?
 
Old 06-28-2008, 02:22 AM
 
348 posts, read 438,855 times
Reputation: 56
Default Old Physical New Spiritual

Originally Posted by Marianinark
Thank you for your compliment

Nicodemus was thinking natural thoughts. Christ was speaking of spiritual things. Being baptized is a physical act , but the forgiveness of sins is spiritual. Being buried with Christ is spiritual, as is being risen to newness of life. Being obedient to the gospel is spiritual.
The Old Covenant was physical. The New is spiritual. Natural man cannot understand the spiritual :

1 Corinthians 2.14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JLA View Post
Why would you consider the Old Covenant as "physical"? Did not God come up with the terms and conditions of the covenant? Or was it man?

Marianinark considers the Old Covenant as "physical" because of what she is reading in scripture. You can understand it also.

Firstly, she has quoted that the natural man cannot understand the spiritual. Lets look at it.

And the Word confirms:

1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The above verse witnesses to us that the natural man is spiritually dead. The ‘natural man’ in Scripture is synonymous with the ‘natural person’ as defined in man’s laws.

Those that are spiritually dead belong to the prince of this world because he's dead himself. Satan has dominion over the natural man, for he is the prince of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11); and, as a consequence of this, he has dominion over those of the world, i.e., human beings, the natural man – those who receive not the things of the Spirit of God and reject Christ. Because the bondman in Christ is sanctified from the world, he is separated from the adversary's dominion over him–sin (John 8:34). This is the cause for Christ having sanctified Himself in the Truth of the Word of God – to provide the entrance to the refuge in and through Himself for us.

Ephesians 4:17-18, "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles [the natural man] walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:"

So we really have to look to the Lord for everything and He will remove that blindness of the heart. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 2:14), therefore his heart remains blind.



Comparisons of the physical and now spiritual:

In 70AD the temple was destroyed. We no longer worship in a "physical temple". Christ is now the temple!

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Hebrews 9:8-14 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It [was] symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience -- [concerned] only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came [as] High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Physical circumcision past, spiritual circumcision now in the new age.

Quote:
quote JLA* Why would you consider the Old Covenant as "physical"? Did not God come up with the terms and conditions of the covenant? Or was it man?
Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh, but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [is] not from men but from God.


Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

This scripture might paint a picture for you on the physical old covenant and
the present spiritual kingdom. The scriptures go on into great depth about this theme of physical and spiritual.

This might also be helpful. Brief Comparison between the Old Covenant and New Covenant in the Bible (http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/brief-comparison-of-old-and-new-covenant.html - broken link)
 
Old 06-29-2008, 03:21 AM
 
532 posts, read 747,188 times
Reputation: 128
Thumbs down Musical Instruments

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
I didn't realize instuments were so hazardous. Although I have commented to some of the violin players walking around with there bows out, "Hey, you could put an eye out with that."
Most of the coc people like music. Many play musical instruments--or listen to music. At Worship Service, they choose to sing without instruments. Singing hymns is a big part of their worship service. They feel that everyone should take part in singing, and if they used instruments, many people would just listen, and be entertained, instead of participating. It doesn't matter if you sing well, or not. I have heard good, and bad singing, but what matters is that you are praising God with your voice, and not depending on someone else to do it for you. You can always go to the opera, or a concert for good entertainment.lol
 
Old 06-29-2008, 09:58 AM
sub
 
165 posts, read 86,227 times
Reputation: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by roberta View Post
Most of the coc people like music. Many play musical instruments--or listen to music. At Worship Service, they choose to sing without instruments. Singing hymns is a big part of their worship service. They feel that everyone should take part in singing, and if they used instruments, many people would just listen, and be entertained, instead of participating. It doesn't matter if you sing well, or not. I have heard good, and bad singing, but what matters is that you are praising God with your voice, and not depending on someone else to do it for you. You can always go to the opera, or a concert for good entertainment.lol
It's as good a place to start as any. I quite reading this thread closely around page 6, so if I repeat, you'll have to forgive me.
The above entry is a pretty accurate view of how church of Christ members look at instrumental music. In 33 years of having grown up in, and still consider myself apart of, that tradition, I've never came across anyone who didn't enjoy some sort of popular music. Those in churches of Christ are much less likely to listen to instrumental Gospel or Contemporary Christian music. Many of them do, though. Even the more hardline folks will listen to it for enjoyment, but they don't dare use it during services.

There's been many changes within the church of Christ tradition in the last 15 or so years. It seems to have started with the larger congregations in large metro areas. Many of them started to incorporate "contemporary" services, in which the atmosphere was a bit more relaxed, praise teams used, and clapping during singing was allowed. Of course, there's been some backlash to this. Some of the more conservative congregations have distanced themselves from anyone who shows the slightest signs of liberalism. I'm not talking about the non-institutionals. That's another thread altogether. For example, the ones I'm talking about are the types who look down on using the NIV, or simply making the slightest changes in how things have been done in the last century.
Some of the more "liberal" congregations now use instrumental music during some of their services. Often, it will be a Saturday night service. Others who have begun to use instruments no longer have the name "church of Christ" on the door. Some of those still fellowship with the more forgiving non-instrumentals, while in other cases, the fellowship has been completely stopped.

Someone earlier mentioned that church of Christ members don't believe in the Holy Spirit. That is very false. They don't understand it completely, but their take on it doesn't seem to be any different than the mainstream denominations. They are not charismatic.

I have plenty more to say on this later, but I must be getting to church.
 
Old 07-01-2008, 02:07 PM
 
8 posts, read 21,692 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
Thank you for your compliment
i wanted to apologize. that was a rather rude comment on my part. please forgive me.
 
Old 07-01-2008, 03:44 PM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,152,505 times
Reputation: 3744
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovablechevy View Post
i wanted to apologize. that was a rather rude comment on my part. please forgive me.
Sure...I forgive you. ( I had to go back to see what had been said...short memory on my part. )
 
Old 07-03-2008, 12:27 AM
 
3 posts, read 6,614 times
Reputation: 13
Default Very concerned

My step daughter recently went to a bible camp with her step siblings. The camp was a church of christ camp and after 3 days she was calling us asking to be baptised....she really didn't sound like herself....the pastor got on the phone and also asked saying that my step daughter was very emotional about this and this was something she really wanted to do but wanted our permission....we found this very odd. My step daughter is 13 and very impressionable so we are really concernec, we are catholic and have brought up our children catholic. We thought that as long as it was a christian camp that it might be a good experience, now we aren't so sure....she seems so different to us now more withdrawn and she is receiving text messages and calls on her cell phone from the kids amd the pastors wife trying to get her to go to their church. Some of the things I have read early on in this blog troubles me......is it true about the FBI cult watch thing...are women really not allowed to be vocal and are expected to be silent? any insight would greatly be apreciated
 
Old 07-03-2008, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,329 posts, read 20,203,137 times
Reputation: 17198
Concerned parent, if you read this whole thread, you know that I have major issues with the cofc, having been in it for years and years..Even though I am now free from their legalisms, it has left scars which are healing..Guilt is one scar that is so hard to heal..Guilt that I was "disobedient" to h and have to live with the fact that he sincerely believes that I am now going to hell. Guilt, because most of my former friends in the congregation now pretend not to know me.(I am on the 'ignore' list of some cofc people in this forum.)..Guilt over the letters and emails from preacher telling me that my children and grandchildrens salvation is at risk, because some of them also left the "church"..Guilt because I think it is everyones choice to worship as they like and we should respect that, yet I speak out against this "church" (This one hurts more than the rest, because it makes me appear two faced)

In my opinion, your child has been frightened by their hellfire and damnation sermons during alter call..There is an orphanage nearby that is sponsored by the cofc in one community, and the childrem were bused to church three times a week (which is not really a bad thing)..Every sermon ends with a plea for those who have not been baptized to come forward, and be baptized to "wash away" their sins and receive the indwelling gift of the holy spirit, and be saved..Some of these preachers go into detail about the punishment of eternal hellfire if you do not obey the baptism call..

While I would not call them a cult, I would say that they are full of pride with their opinion that they are the only true group that can be called the "bride of christ" and that they are the only ones who follow what the early church taught. They claim they love the sinner but hate the sin of gays, muslims, Catholics, Baptists and denominalizationalism, yet I have seen their body language and heard their voices as they talk about these issues and I see hate.

Feel free to dm me..Over the past year or so I have often gone to private conversation, in order to keep this thread civil..

Last edited by Miss Blue; 07-03-2008 at 05:41 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
Old 07-03-2008, 07:56 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,152,505 times
Reputation: 3744
One more time I will try to explain something about the church of Christ. In the first place , they do not...I repeat ..do not preach "hell fire and damnation".
In the second place, they do not 'shun' people ... If someone here had such an experience, it was not a normal occurance in a church of Christ.
The VBS's do not use scare tactics !. I would imagine that girl is a sensitive child, and was moved by the group response that occasionally happens when young folk get together.
I would suggest that all who think women are cowardly and down trodden in the churches do a little visiting and see for yourselves. The concept is a lie, pure and simple. It is straight from the devil. I do know what I am saying. I have been a member for 42 years, and have worshipped at several differant congregations, and visited several others. The only one that I found a little weird was in the back hills of Arkansas, at a singing, where the men sat on one side, and the women on the other side. I never attended their bible study, or their worship service, so do not know if it is the same. Since every congregation is self governing, and their doctrine is all from the New Testament, there is some variation, but usually very little.
Our congregation had a bad experience with a preacher that preached for us several years before he suddenly came up with the idea that women should not speak in the bible class, or teach a class. He was very radical about it. One Sunday morning he announced, from the pulpet, that if the congregation would not agree with him he would leave, Several members, men and wives, walked out on him! We did not happen to be there that day, due to illness, but we would have walked out also. He left and never returned. At least half of the congregation left with him, but most of them were his family who had came from elsewhere just because he was there ! Since I was one of the women who had been speaking in class, I confronted him at a later date, when I met him in town. He said he wasn't talking about me???? He never repented for tearing up the church ( he did it elsewhere also) , and for sowing discord amongst the brethern. Sad to say, he has since died, and I learned that he regretted what he did. If he had come to us, and repented, we would have all forgiven him. I am sorry he didn't.
Now, another thought, since the church of Christ is teaching only the word of God, and the members are obeying only the word of God, where does that place all who are condemning it ??? I believe there are scriptures that tell what happens to those who speak against Christ and his followers.
So...if you are comfortable in your church of Christ bashing...carry on, God will be your judge, and who knows....according to scripture, the church will be also.
I have read all the posts, of all that are rejecting the plain teachings of the scriptures, and they are in one of the books that will be judging you !
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